Hometown Cha Cha Cha Ep 9 - And That Could Be You [Podcast]

Hometown Cha Cha Cha Ep 9 - And That Could Be You

Released: May 23, 2022

Transcript:

[00:00:00] 

Beep: Hello and welcome back to Streaming Banshees, your TV book club on the internet. This is beep and today's podcast is about Hometown Cha Cha Cha, Episode Nine. Just a reminder that we are a rewatch podcast. So spoilers abound from the beginning to the end because we like to tie everything together. To look at this amazing writing. You can find us on our website, streaming banshees.com or on Twitter at TV Banshees. Today, I'm joined as always by the lovely CC.

Tina: Hey guys, you can find me on Twitter at @acapitalchick.

Beep: And we have a new guest. [00:01:00] This is Toni. Please tell us a little bit about yourself and why you love Hometown Cha Cha Cha.

Toni: Hello, I'm Toni Maggio with an eye because I'm a girl. I write a blog that photo recaps TV in a ridiculous way. And I love Hometown Cha Cha Cha because, oh my gosh, it just made my heart full of joy and that's very needed these days,

Tina: Yeah.

Beep: Okay. So we will post the link to your blog in our show notes, because guys, this is actually how I originally found you. Toni. When I was back, when I was watching the a hundred, a long time ago, before I quit, I would still read your recaps because they're absolutely hilarious.

Toni: Thank you so much.

Beep: I love everything that you do.

Tina: was mandatory reading for, uh, for both my husband and for me, and he's, he's not on the internet at all for TV, but reading Toni's [00:02:00] recap, mandatory, hilarious, but also super, super smart. And your, Toni, are you studying creative writing right now?

Toni: am. Yeah, I'm doing a masters.

Tina: we're super excited to hear all about your rating insights. 

Toni: I also live in Korea. So that's kind of a bit of an added thing for K dramas. It's kind of why I'm disappearing into the world of K dramas.

Tina: yeah. 

Beep: What shows have you recapped recently for that people might be watching?

Toni: I recently did Sanditon, which is like a Jane Austen. Cause she started the book and then unfortunately died before she could finish it. So the, PBS masterpiece is kind of finishing her story for her. So I recapped that one.

Beep: I am also going to die before I finish my book.

Toni: God, knock on wood

Beep: to be clear.

Tina: This is a really dark way to kick off this podcast.[00:03:00] 

Well, I love nerding out about writing with the two of you. So I'm really, I'm so excited to talk about episode nine with you. Cause I feel like it is particularly rich and kind of shattering on rewatch now that we know everything that is holding people back. this it's funny because this episode is almost like a relationship dress rehearsal. where you're meeting the parents and pretending to be a boyfriend when both people are considering like, is this like what F you know, like it kind of brings up what if he was my boyfriend? What if I was her boyfriend? And he uses this trope of the fake boyfriend, but kind of encapsulated within one episode.

And Toni, do you have any thoughts? Just sort of about the possibilities that, that trope often opens up in terms of exploring how characters are feeling about each other?

Toni: Oh, I love it. I love the fake relationship trope. In other stories you kind of think about, oh, they, they meet with [00:04:00] this fake relationship and fall in love that way. But with this one they're already, they already have established feelings. So it's almost like wish fulfillment. Like when he originally says it, it's almost like, oh, I get to be her boyfriend for the day, because in his mind he doesn't get to for real.

So it's almost like, oh, this is my way of getting what I want in a very sad, kind of poor man's relationship.

Tina: Hm. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Toni: to be a downer. 

Tina: No, uh, well, we're going to, we're going to be in that space a lot. I feel like in this episode, I think it comes at this interesting time because in the story, you know, we had these earlier kind of ships passing in terms of miscommunication and people drawing conclusions about where this was headed.

But this is coming at a time where Chief Hong [00:05:00] is acutely aware that this is actually a possibility, right. She almost just kissed him again. She took care of him. They have this, like, you know, we're going to unpack it like epic hug moment. And then he watches her, defend him to her dad about all of the things that she used to give him a hard time about.

And so it's almost like this nudge of, oh, it's not just like, I mean, obviously he's got a lot internally about what's going on, but, but now at least with respect to her, it actually is this possibility dangling in front of him, which it seems like makes it even harder to keep everything in a box.

Toni: And for her to, because in not to jump ahead, but at one point, you know, after they kind of argue at the boat, she walks away and says like, I don't even know why I had hope. I was like, oh, hope for what he did. And I went he's I vote

Tina: yeah. Yeah. But cause you [00:06:00] know, there's all these small moments of, of consideration and things that he's been doing for her, which actually kind of run parallel to Director Ji. Right. And so it's like, you know, so yeah. And I think she gets, this is also a tryout for her. She's watching this, this man interact with her family.

this episode is a great check-in for her character because we not only have sort of a stop along the way to see how far she's come in her attitudes about what society expects. Like she's still grappling with it, but it's not the same knee jerk.

Why are you living this way? It's like, she's trying to understand the why. And also just kind of understanding more about her and where she comes from with respect to her dad and the way he is. I feel like it gives us a lot of insight into why Hye-jin was the way she was when we first met her.

 Does that make sense? 

Toni: absolutely. 

Tina: Listeners know [00:07:00] that we love a literary reference, but we always pay attention to the bucks that the vet Shin Haeun and Director Jin, wan put in chief Hong's hands. And in this episode, he's holding a collection of plays. 

 Toni? Tell us, tell us a little bit just big picture wise, because I think it's sort of the other big umbrella theme of this episode, about, about the collection of plays that we see and Chief Hongs, hands and stuff.

Toni: well I, so I went to theater school and we actually studied  Eugène Ionesco— we did the bald soprano and I mean, this was a thousand years ago because I'm an old, but I do remember like, it's just nonsense. They're talking in circles. They never match up. And so if, if she really is trying to do this theme, it's almost this idea of like, the [00:08:00] communication is just broken.

No one is listening. They're, they're almost on different wavelengths. But the beautiful thing about that play in particular, the bald soprano is that in the end, the one couple start saying the lines that the other couple said at the beginning of the play. So there is kind of the. This hopeful feeling that you're like, oh, maybe they were listening.

Like it's in there somewhere. And now they're kind of regurgitating what they heard at the beginning. At least that could be one interpretation of that. So it's kind of this, you know, they could be listening. There is hope. 

Tina: Um,

I love that because with, I think that that theme of, of talking in circles and miscommunication applies to a lot of characters in this episode in particular. and [00:09:00] it's, it's sort of like a long-term theme, right? But Shin Haeun, isn't going to her ending is not absurd as her ending is human beings can fumble towards meaningful connection and communication and that, that can be transformative.

But in this episode you have Hye-jin’s father. Kind of really failing to communicate many things. And it's kind of like the subtle tragedy, with his daughter of how it's like, they don't know how to talk to one another. you obviously have Hye-jin and Chief Hong talking in circles, and then you have Hwa-jung and Yeong Guk.

They, these ex-spouses that, I mean, have probably been having the same conversation or lack thereof, for three years since they were divorced and even me sawn and right. All of these pairs are sort of the center of the three mysteries of Gongjin have a really bad miscommunication in that police car.[00:10:00] 

and 

Toni: Oh, that's so painful.

Tina: there's just a lot of people talking past each other. And what's interesting, at least with respect to Hye-jin and Chief Hong at Hwa-jung and Yeong Guk, when Hye-jin later in the episode says the past, you know, we'll leave the past in the past. It's like now the problem is it, it can't stay in the past because it's affecting the present.

And that is a source of miscommunication between characters right now.

So talk to me about this hug moment.

Toni: Oh my God. Like, can we just never stop talking about the hug? It's like, it just lit my whole body on fire. And not just like, not just from her perspective, because if you were, or if you thought you were being chased down an alley, you're pretty much gonna run towards the first person you see that, you know, and there's going to be that relief.

[00:11:00] So on her end, I was like, oh, that's cute. But on his end, oh my goodness. The fact that his body just reacted and his arms went out to her before she was even there.

Tina: um,

Toni: And then his face, like, is this happening? Oh, it was just so beautiful and tragic at the same time.

Tina: The way he kind of pulls her close with one arm

Toni: Oh,

Tina: I know it's like we had talked at the very end. I mean, they give us a lot more, right. We, we, we ended the episode like kind of dramatically where it's like, is he going to react? And then he does. And he pulls her closer. This, the beginning of this episode just lets you kind of steep. Let's like, we're steeped in that moment and he's pulling her close. And we had talked at the end of last podcast, how it was like almost watching somebody wake up to something they can do, you know, because like he, [00:12:00] I mean, chief Hong is a, I mean he's so friendly. Right. And he's so helpful to people, but we don't see him be other than carrying a Gam-ri on his back, like Nam-sook, went to try and hug him in the last episode, after he recovered her money.

And he just was so and awkward. 

Toni: Even when, he first meets Direction Ji and do you like went to go touch him? And he took a step back and was like, we don't need to be close.

Tina: Um,

Toni: Like he just puts that wall up immediately.

Tina: Yeah. That's such a good point. It's like physical intimacy and emotional intimacy go hand in hand in terms of his journey, because isn't it crazy to watch him be so like it's so monumental to even put one arm around her. When you think about the Chief Hong that we will see at the end of the show, who's literally running to like hug her and swing her around because she was away for three days, you know, like, but what I [00:13:00] love about hometown cha-cha and the. Big like romcom slash K-drama moments, right? Like a hug is an important stop along the way of sort of romantic storytelling. particularly as I've sort of been watching more and more K drama. but what Hometown Cha Cha Cha does both in this episode, but then also after the confession is it shows us the moment after. 

Toni: oh, it's just so important. It actually kind of bugs me when shows have this big dramatic moment. And then the next scene is like, oh, the next day they're waking up. And I'm like, what happened? Like what w how did they react to that? That was so huge. And are we do, we just expect that they walked away from each other, like they just turned around and took 10 paces.

Tina: yeah.

Toni: yeah, like that [00:14:00] awkwardness and how they started talking about how Korea makes great electronics didn't break. Oh. And she never tells him why. Like, I think we're to assume that he assumes that she was just scared by some of them possibly behind her, but she never says like, oh, I thought someone was chasing me and he never asked. So there's just this moment of like, yeah, we just hug. Let's talk about our country's superior it.

Tina: Well, it's funny because when you like, while completely avoiding eye contact our countries in it powerhouse, it's like the most ridiculous, awkward, small talk

Toni: And you can see like theme coming out of both of their ears.

Tina: I mean, do you guys, I mean, do you guys think that they might've kissed if that guy had an ablation.

Toni: I think they would have scared themselves [00:15:00] off. And 

Beep: Yeah, we, we may have had a repeat of the circle. We've been dancing around here lately.

Tina: I love him because I feel like, I feel like the audience is that guy where he's like, no, no, no, just continue what you were doing.

Toni: my God. We are all that guy. Just be like, oh, your phone. Oh, so sorry to interrupt. Just keep, keep going.

Tina: So, but what I love about the awkwardness after just like at the top, at the beginning of episode 11 after the confession scene is when you let the audience sit with the awkwardness and the, oh my God, did this just happen. And now I don't know how to act. I don't know what to do with my hands. And I don't know how to make eye contact and like watery, like what happens next?

Then it just heightens everything that just happened because you let us see how the characters are affected by it. And it's not actually that common with the wrong calm [00:16:00] moments. Right. You get the big sweeping moment. And then 20 years you said, you just cut. And it's just like, we just went for the big movie moment.

But what is so wonderful about this? Is it just heightens like the interior life of the characters, because you know, the audience is like, okay, that was a big moment. That was monumental. But then getting to watch them, then react to that. I feel like it just heightens all of it.

Toni: Oh, absolutely. And we've all been in that, that kind of situation or that emotional state where you just don't know what to do with yourself. You say dumb things, just because just to say something and it's so awkward and lovely and exciting, and we can almost feel those butterflies that they're feeling just through that awkwardness.

Tina: You're going to do something. Shin Haeun your flashlight at someone's feet, right where they're at, they're received any home when she is home. what is great is that [00:17:00] as soon as they part, they show us in different ways how they are both wrecked. Talk to me about chief Hong, walking away with his heart pounding

Toni: Oh my gosh. He's destroyed the poor guy. Just there's no coming back from that. Like yes. Go home and read your book upside down in your couch because you're not sleeping tonight, buddy.

Tina: patient walks into your house, like Monica from friends, and just sticks her head in the freezer.

Toni: And then she's like, I know, I know what'll take this away TaeKwonDo.

Tina: Well, what I love about this whole thing is there are, I feel like we should have been listening to exercising in the Moonlight because I, what I love about it is for both of them, they're all like [00:18:00] classic, like hot and bothered. Right. But for both of them, they can't sleep. And so then the activities that they choose to try and get their mind off of this are both. So in character, right? Like Hye-jin is doing all TaeKwonDo, golf, lunges, the Hulu.

Toni: And then at one point she just like gets lost in her mind and her body stops and the Hulu falls to the floor. I'm like, what do you, what are you thinking about there, buddy?

Tina: All choosing like contemplative, like I'm going to dust my books and I'm going to do yoga and I'm going to make tea. It's just, I'm going to read an absurdist book with my head on the table and my feet on the couch. Like even the way these stage, it just heightens everything about it. we talked a little bit about the buck.

Some absurdist literature, people might be more familiar with, [00:19:00] is Samuel Beckett's waiting for Godot or Tom Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. And Toni, as you said, it's sort of like about the futility of meaningful communication.

and there's a quote by Ionesco that I came across, that I thought was really interesting in particular to Chief Hong. And when it says, when he says his death is our main problem and all others are less important, it is the wall and the limit. It is the only inescapable alienation.

It gives us a sense of our limits, but the ignorance of ourselves and of others to which we are condemned is just as worrying in the final analysis. We don't know what we're doing. Nevertheless, in all my work, there is an element of hope and an appeal to others. I'd love to just take a minute to sort of unpack. Those [00:20:00] absurdist themes. Chief Hong is somebody who reads a lot of philosophy. So even if he's reading Thoreau or Tolstoy, he's choosing works that are philosophical in nature. And at this moment he's reading a collection of plays about how hard meaningful communication is.

Toni: Hmm. Yeah. And like he chose that one instead of those other absurdist, plays that you mentioned because like waiting for good toe. Yeah. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. They're tragedies like, yes, they're absurdist, but they're also just deeply dark. And then you have this other absurdist author that has this element of hope.

And it's just interesting that in this moment where he just had a little bit of hope, right? Like he was just hugged by his crush. That's huge. He comes home and read this specific book where the characters [00:21:00] kind of indicate that they are growing by the end.

Tina: Yeah. We read at the end of the last podcast, the letter that wrote from the, from the point of view of, of Du-sik in the future,

Toni: Hmm.

Tina: after he, after they're married, it's sort of post-canon in the show and he called looking back the character, looking back on this time, calls it the moment of hesitation 

of if I could dare to be happy.

Toni: It hurts. It hurts my soul.

Tina: Hat that's that's this, this entire episode. And the next episode we going all the way up to when he finally gives in, it's not denial anymore, right? This is he is becoming, or is fully aware of how he feels. And he it's like he is suspended in hesitation. His [00:22:00] whole problem is not being able to open up about the past.

And he's reading a book about people talking in circles and misunderstanding one another. It's a really, I mean, the layers that she adds in to the show, her really incredible take us to the gas station the next day. How'd that go?

Toni: Oh,

Beep: This is not how you want to meet either your real or your fake girlfriend's dad. This is a no, I see. I love Du-sik for this and the fact that he speaks to everyone the same way, and they're just like, oh, we're besties, right? It's fine. Not that he necessarily feels that, but that's how he's going to address everybody.

And I also love that Papa Hye-jin is not having it. He was like, who is this full, this I picture I'm thinking like [00:23:00] this, like untrained, hooligan, you know, coming up to me as acting a certain kind of way. Uh, this is, I think my favorite part of the episode is the interactions that these two have together starting.

Tina: It almost is, it's like a redo of Chief Hong meeting Hye-jin for the first time. And it's going about as well

Toni: oh

Tina: as that went,

Toni: And the best part is Du-sik walks away from that situation thinking he nailed it. Like he's like what a nice guy. I am. I just helped this elderly man. He calls him elderly wrong with you.

Tina: the problem with the put technology in front of elderly people, they don't know how to deal with it. 

Toni: Oh God. And like, when he turns to his wife and says, did he just talk down to me? Like, what he's saying is, did he just use informal speech with me? But that phrase talk down to [00:24:00] you also works really well because he was being super condescending.

Tina: Yeah.

Beep: normal for him to be honest

Toni: Uh, 

Tina: he, yeah.

Beep: in a bit of a veiled way at times. But yeah, it's, it's kind of thing.

Tina: yeah, he's a flawed character. He has a lot of wise things to say there's sometimes delivered in a condescending way. One of the things that I thought was really fascinating when they dubbed this show into multiple languages was to listen to how the translators and the dubbing tried to capture the formality versus informality of speech in different languages.

So like I listened to it in English and then I listened to it in Spanish. can you give us a little context about. To our NORC, collectively north American ears coming from the U S and Canada. What the equivalent of talking to an older adult [00:25:00] venue than you're meeting for the first time, what what's going on here.

Toni: It's just so rude. Like it's so it would be like walking up to, you know, your boss and be like, Yo, yo, how how's it going? Like so bad. Yeah. Like your birthday. Oh, just I cringe, like, even if it happens to me and I'm a westerner, but just having lived here for so long, you know, I hear it and I'm like, um, excuse me, how old are you? Why are you talking to me? Like, and it's just so ingrained in the culture that, you know, his philosophy, even I'm watching it being like, no, dude, you're just being rude. Like, it's definitely, he's his, he says his philosophy is about, you know, oh, we're all on the same level where we can all be friends, but really it's a way to [00:26:00] push people away to put up this wall between him and everyone else, because he knows that people are going to be put off by it.

Tina: it also, I mean, it's tied up with, he is somebody who is living his life in rejection of what society expects. Which is going to come back as a big debate towards the end of this episode. So, you know, working for minimum wage, living in back in a small town and, and not pursuing sort of a professional career, despite his prestigious degree, that seems to also kind of go hand in hand with it.

Like I'm not playing by society's rules. but man, was it a rough way to meet your future? Father-in-law

Toni: yeah.

Tina: meanwhile, meanwhile, Hye-jin just got back from a run and is smiley thinking back on the hug 

Toni: I mean, who wouldn't

be. 

Tina: know, right. I was like, I I'm re I rebound that [00:27:00] also Hye-jin, gossip girl, Gongjin gossip girl comes up bursting with excitement and sets. I heard you passionately embraced. Oh my God.

Toni: It's like broken telephone, right? Like one person says it to another person. It just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And soon they're just like having sex on the street.

Beep: When in reality it was just like a super high stakes. I fell into him sort of deal. Not that

she wasn't glad it was him obviously, but yeah, she didn't even get two arms and that's what we're making now.

Tina: Well it also though this time the gossip is correct. In fact, he was just thinking about it. Right. but what I think is so hilarious is Nam suck because they've had this breakthrough at the end of the last episode is truly like, look, I'm not going to tell anybody else, which is actually [00:28:00] huge for her.

Right. 

Toni: and she calls her an honorific in that conversation. And I can't remember if she ever did before. she calls her Sam, which is like a short form for sensing them, which is what they call like doctors and teachers. so it is kind of a higher honorific than you would normally use in conversation.

And so part of me is like, oh, she's really respecting her because of how she helped her in the last episode. That's really sweet. And then she just blows up her shit.

Tina: I love that insight because remember last episode, she called her profession of fraud.

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: So I love that. But what the irony is, gossip girl said that she's going to keep this one in the box, but just talking about it out loud is what lets the cat out of the bag in front of Haitians, father and stepmother.

So

Toni: The looks on their faces when that truck pulls away is just [00:29:00] precious. Like it's so amazing.

Tina: and he's there, it's a disaster. Talk to me about how poorly this interaction goes.

Toni: I mean, the two of them are just, it's like they're faded to be awkward, right. Because he he's right throughout the whole episode, he keeps saying like Hye-jin takes after you. And it's true. They really are very similar and Du-sik and her step-mom are really similar. And so the fact that those two couples kind of fit together is really rather beautiful, but it also means that this first interaction is just faded to go so terribly.

Tina: right. Just like it did for Chief Hong and Hye-jin in

Toni: Yeah, exactly. 

Tina: Yeah.

Yeah, I would, there was a, [00:30:00] there is a really, I think sort of every day, so very sad thread that runs through this episode. Did you guys notice how her father downplayed, stopping and Gongjin and the first place, and then the step-mom is like, what are you talking about?

You're the one who insisted that we come here. it's, it's really, if we're talking about sort of miscommunication is not the right word, lack of communication. He really, he loves his daughter a lot and he's carrying a lot of guilt for sort of what he views as his failings as a parent. But he cannot talk about any of that with her. And it has to express it like in, even when he is doing something like coming to see his daughter, just because they were driving by and he wants to see how she's doing, he has to downplay it and, and it just kinda, it just hurt my heart. Like why, why, why does he do that? [00:31:00] know?

Toni: It's the same as when she calls him and he's like, why what's wrong? He doesn't believe that she would just do that in the same way that he, you know, he's not gonna admit that he just came to see her. And so he probably just doesn't think that she would want him to, or that she would call him out of the blue without something being wrong.

Because in his mind, it's kind of the same way that, you know, do she thinks that he doesn't deserve love, perhaps her father is sort of picking that same way in that, oh, he kind of failed her as a child. So now he doesn't deserve her affection. And so he doesn't want to ask for it.

Tina: yeah. Yeah. Cause Beep, I remember you had pointed out on a, on a previous podcast, how. How sad it is that he's both aware of this and yet doesn't talk to her about it.

Beep: Right. Yeah. Cause he's just so plugged [00:32:00] up emotionally.

Tina: Yeah. It isn't really, this, this visit not only is sort of this dress rehearsal of what is going to be our new family at the end of the story. But also it's a really interesting character check-in for Hye-jin because we not only see a more closed up version quick to be judgmental, prickly version of her, but it also reminds us, we for a couple of episodes now we've been in this bubble of where Chief Hong is, you know, a very respected and valued member of his community.

And here comes her father asking, what do you do for a living? Any thoughts on how this conversation shakes out?

Toni: Um, and the word he uses when he finds out [00:33:00] that he doesn't have a job, the subtitles say unemployed, man, but it's actually a little bit more rude than that. I can't, I can't really explain the nuance, but he does kind of get a little bit rude about it. So it's interesting that yeah, like his perspective is like, oh, you don't have a job then what is your worth here?

of thing

Tina: Almost like saying you're, you're dating some deadbeat.

Toni: a little bit. Yeah. 

Yeah.

Tina: But so let's unpack what she says, because this is a rape. Of all of the debates and arguments that they had at the beginning of the series, or even after the first kiss where she really put him down and was basically like you're beneath me for all of these reasons.

Right. And now we're checking in with Hye-jin about her evolving attitudes, [00:34:00] about his, as he puts it, I'm currently experiencing all the jobs in the world. She says, who cares if I make more money? Any thoughts on that?

Toni: I mean, it's true, right? Like she's well off, she's a dentist. She doesn't need a man to come in and pay for her stuff. Right. Like she is an independent woman and regardless of defending, you know, her friend slash crush, it is kind of about that. Like dad, like, what are you doing? I'm fine. Like, I don't need this man to make money.

Tina: Yeah. Well, she smacks down with the support of Chief Hong. A lot of paternalism. He literally told a 34 year old woman to go to her room

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: and 

Toni: And 

Tina: no, 

Toni: I loved when he [00:35:00] was then like, okay, then like young men, you come talk to me and she's like, no. And she's like, well, she said no, so

Tina: and women are generally right. It's like, ah, feminists are hot, dude. Well done.

Toni: yeah.

Tina: And then the stepmother pushes back. Right? I mean, everyone, he tries to kind of, you know, assert his paternal authority and everyone in the room is like, Nope, 

rejects it. Then, then Hye-jin is like, he's a good guy. 

He's tall.

Toni: He's 

tall back kills me. Like obviously she had this list already. Like she has been thinking about this and I love it. The fact that he's tall made her list. I mean, fair enough.

Beep: Hey, the important things, 

Toni: Yeah. 

Tina: she's not wrong. she's not wrong. 

Beep: No. I mean, it's just a fact he's tall and he's handsome.

Tina: Um, imagine what do you, think's [00:36:00] going through chief Hong's head.

Toni: Like, hell yeah. I'm tall and handsome. Keep going.

Tina: I mean, I think it is, it's both, you know, a check-in for her she's right. As you said, toady, she's clearly been rationalizing her crush and, and having an internal conversation with herself where she's deconstructing all of the things that frankly came up in re I think she had a lot of sort of existing prejudices.

Isn't the right word, but kind of narrow views of success because of all of, all of the things that came from her experiences in university. Right. And how hard she's worked to prove herself, being measured by those barometers. But, but, but also he's hearing now his fake girlfriend defending him on all of the points that she used to say to him was why he [00:37:00] wasn't good enough for her.

Toni: And you've got to think that like, Hye-jin is thinking ahead and yes, he's her fake boyfriend right now, but he's also her crush, which maybe she hasn't admitted to herself, but at least subconsciously she's like, I don't want my dad looking down on my potentially future boyfriend.

Tina: But then the troubling future landmine is she says, he's just taking a break.

Toni: Oh, yeah.

Tina: And then her father's like, is that true? And you see him kind of be like, Hmm, kind of like, ah, but this is, you know, all of this is kind of laying the groundwork for this, talking in circles conversation they're going to have at the boat. Talk to me about how terrible all of the residents of Gongjin are at [00:38:00] pretending that they're dating.

Toni: okay. To be fair though. This is kind of Mi-seon fault for offering the discount. That was the worst idea she could have had because then of course, they're all just gonna be so extra about it. Trying to win this discount. Oh my gosh. Like they were all just like 30%

Tina: I love that all of these people though are going to do such a good job, two episodes from now, pretending that they don't know that they're dating, like, Toni, you alluded to Bess. I find the dynamic of how prickly and contrarian Hagen's father is and the way the stepmother pierces that with humor and the way that she sort of instantly connects with chief Hong and [00:39:00] his humor and sort of how they are kind of parallel to one another, right?

They're like slightly more or less extreme versions of one or the other. But there are, there are dynamics that are definitely have things in common.

Toni: yeah. They're like kindred spirits.

Tina: , Director Ji finds out that Chief Hong is pretending to be Hye-jin’s boyfriend. He's not super pleased about it, Izzy.

Toni: like I was almost embarrassed for him. This episode, everyone kept like, pretending like Du-sik was the one who was being embarrassing. Meanwhile, Director Ji is just so extra. He was just like, wait, wait, wait, wait. And like runs over to them. And his,

Beep: Yeah. I mean, he's made his intentions very clear directly to do chic. So he's like, wait a minute. What's going on here? Why am I not involved in.

Tina: And he, he does [00:40:00] everything on paper that would be right for meeting potential in-laws for the first time, right. He's using extremely formal speech. He's following all the social rules. He's going over the top. You know, he's giving them the tour of the set. He is successful professionally by sort of like society standards. Talk to me about this really painful tea and snack that they all have together.

Toni: it's kind of interesting that, you know, Director Ji is going to great Heights to be this kind of perfect suitor, with the super polite language and calling him, you know, Ave him and all this stuff and offering snacks, but it's not really him. Right. Like we know. The real him. And we know that he jokes around and he's this goofball.

So the parents aren't really meeting the real [00:41:00] him, but they are seeing the real do chic.

Tina: Yeah. That's such a good point for better or worse,

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: at least right now. Yeah. Everybody notes. The llama key chain, 

Toni: Mm 

Tina: including the poor television writer

Toni: Hmm.

Beep: But the Llama hurts

Toni: Hurts.

Beep: the L;ama. I mean, it's a big deal and it's so funny how it in and of itself, you know, is such a small little matter. But for the, uh, for the writer who. Likes Director Ji as much as he thinks he likes Hye-jin, which is not to say that he doesn't, but he's a very, very blind man to what is right in front of him. I mean, it's so heartbreaking for her to, you know, for them to have never given that up. He's always like, this is my good luck charm and it goes with our production and all that. And then [00:42:00] this seemingly random girl to everybody else just has it. It's a, it's a brutal

Toni: I also think in this moment, like we didn't know before then that it wasn't just his good luck charm. I got that. It was just, you know, GPD is personal, good luck charm that he gave 

away. But, and then finding out that it's, everyone's like it's the whole production. They have an emotional stake in this stuffed Llama key chain. And then it's just in her purse. That's right.

Tina: yeah. It also chief Hong is pretty insecure during the scene where they're all around the table. and what I think is interesting, which is always, what's so fun about this trope is he's pretending to be her boyfriend, right. He also very important. It's not charging her by the hour for it.[00:43:00] 

He said, I'll charge you for the shower head. what's real is he's feeling really insecure as he's being measured against Director Ji and how successful he is. And they're talking about their past history at university and her parents are like delighting in the stories, right. This guy in many ways is like everything he's not.

And then when they get to the fish restaurant, he's actually, you know, Haitians, dad is quite rude to him, right? Like, he's always like, when he's like, I remodeled this place, where does like, oh, you're such a bragger. Right? He can't, it's like, he can't say anything. Right. But he keeps trying. And it's not just about being the fake boyfriend to play the role.

Toni: her dad is kind of being a child. Like they play go and he soaks, you know, he makes him take back, uh, [00:44:00] move that is child behavior. And like, there is this, you know, kind of Shin Haeun moment where he's just like, oh, you know about plants, teach me kind of thing, but then they regress again. And it just, it makes me wonder that.

Y dude, what is your problem?

Tina: Yeah. I mean, he's the, he is a lot of things like he's competitive and he's stubborn, right. Chief Hong and be like, 

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: sounds like somebody else. I know.

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: I love that. It's a something, all of these, the things that they connect about are all. Things that really get at how intelligent and knowledgeable chief Angus, right.

He's somebody who knows. He, you can literally be like, tell me how to grow this orchid. And he's like, all right, I'm going to tell you like what climate they're from and all of that, right. It [00:45:00] starts to get beyond the surface of what society expects and is getting at how smart he is. Right. Go is like for at least Westerners, right?

It's like the equivalent of playing chess, right? It's like a game of strategy and a game of wits and Chief Hong is beating him at it. And then there's sort of this there's, there's like these kind of poignant layers to this scene because first of all, Chief Hong mentions, I used to pay for meals by winning at this game.

And then you think of like, because he was, you know, her father doesn't note at this point, but because he was, he was an orphan, right. And winning a games. And that's how you would get like meals paid for. But also when the, when the stepmother talks to Hye-jin about her father and what she means to him, he's playing go [00:46:00] alone. Did you guys notice that in the foreground, she's like lying on the couch and he's playing this game by himself. And there's kind of these layers of the loneliness for both of these men that they used to play this game either alone or to basically kind of hustle for food, because he didn't have a family.

And now they're sitting at this table. And even though, you know, her, her father, doesn't like losing it's this moment of connection. Whereas previously it was about, it was kind of a symbol of their loneliness.

Toni: oh, that's hard. That's rough. That just hit me.

Tina: But I loved it. Chief Hong also is not going to let this guy win because even when he tastes the move back 

Toni: He's 

Tina: father he's like, oh man, it was that where you're going to do.[00:47:00] beep you have pointed out before that, unlike Cinderella, this woman who lost her shoe, her stepmother is actually wonderful. Talk to me about this scene with the candy and where there it's really sort of steeped in this awkwardness between them.

Beep: So I know that we've talked about before. There's a lot of, Cinderella parallels in this story, but the one thing that it absolutely turns on its head that I love is we have the stepmother. Who's actually more emotionally intelligent than anyone else, and is 

kind of a catalyst in many ways of opening these people up to each other.

So her attempting, you know, to have this conversation with Asian. I mean, let's just be honest. She's, she's a bit stunted in her own way, not just with, but in general, it doesn't have a lot of relationships in her life, except for, with me, someone who's just [00:48:00] going to force her to open up regardless. But I mean, you, you have this person in place. I can't imagine what it feels like. Not only for your dad, what, you know, once your mom died to kind of abandon you to, you know, his alcoholism or being alone, but then he also finds something different. And so I would assume whatever he does kind of have to give.

She's seeing that given to her stepmother instead of herself. And so it's, so it's so hard because each of them have a different perspective in so far as their dynamic has shaped, but it's really a breath of fresh air. And in my estimation to see the stepmom actually be so in tune with everybody else's feelings and she's not pushy, she just she's very calm and she lets kind of the conversation and the advice flow through her.

And I then all Hye-jin can do is just give her a piece of [00:49:00] candy.

Tina: yeah. Well,

Beep: He's like, I don't know what to say. Here's some candy.

Tina: Yeah. I mean, bringing it back to this is why Hye-jin ran away as a teen

Toni: Um, and actually there's, some Korean nuance there, because, and this isn't like a hard and fast rule. It's just kind of a cultural thing that once you have a new partner, it is insensitive to talk about or allude to your past partners. So for Hye-jin, I assume when you know her dad gets a new girlfriend or a new partner, it means that in her mind, oh, we can't talk about mom now.

You know, we have to forget about my mother in order to welcome this new woman into our lives. So there's this whole another, like level of pain that she's going through when that happens.

Beep: Wow. That's hard. Do you think though, that puts her in a [00:50:00] spot almost of knowing that there's no chance of that happening? Because I feel like they didn't do that anyway.

You know, like they already, weren't talking about mom, but that kind of is like the nail in the coffin of like, well now we can definitely never broach this subject.

Toni: Yeah. And I wonder if they had like pictures in the house that maybe they replaced,

Beep: Ooh. 

Toni: that would be

Tina: oh, she, it goes, and that actually, that's such an interesting point, Toni, because it goes back to why she went back to Gongjin in the first place, actually both times where she felt like her mother's memory was, as she said to chief Hong, the night that they got drunk together is slipping away. it was, that's why she went back to Gongjin both as a teenager and as an adult woman that kicked off this story.

And so that's such an interesting point because you feel like it's just sort of, you know, she already, she's already said as a 34 year old woman, I feel like my mother's [00:51:00] memory, like sh like she almost didn't exist at all. what I, what I like about this scene is they're so awkward when it comes to communicating with words.

But as soon as the stepmother talks about this syndrome that she has with her mouth,

Toni: Like Hotmail. Is that a real thing?

Tina: I don't know burning mouth, but Hye-jin is like that. I know how to deal with, so can I get you water? Right? You need to do this. I'll give you a piece of candy. She, she has a road of acts of things she can do, even if words are failing her.

And she doesn't know how to connect with her any other way, which is also how she expresses how she cares about Chief Hong. Right. Was taking care of him the last episode.

Toni: It's how she expresses care for the whole town. Right? Like she fixes Gam-ri’s teeth. She says that she'll fix jewelry, snaggletooth. It's kind of how she shows [00:52:00] affection is by doing these acts for people.

Tina: Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point. All right. This future new family unit is sitting around and sharing their first meal. Chief Hong says out loud. Thanks. Wow. Yeah. Everyone would be thinking, well, you guys aren't close at all.

Beep: That's brutal.

Tina: And Hey shit. It's like, what does it matter when your family, it doesn't matter. It's still a relationship so much to unpack

Toni: And you got to think for him, he's probably watching them being like you guys are taking this for granted. You have a family

Tina: great. Yeah. and here are three people. and He doesn't have anybody I mean, how do you think this meal would have gone if [00:53:00] he weren't there?

Yeah. It's like the stepmother now has backup, 

you know, and you know, it's, if both of them are there, because when her, when her husband reacts to chief Hong, like, you know, standoffish, the, the, stepmother's always kind of laughing at him, you know, she's, she's now like chief Hong's backups, chief Hong is the one that's like, basically like, okay, if you guys are going to be this awkward, then I'm just going to have to be over the top. But you know, it does get at this idea about you can't take these bonds for granted, you know, like you have to tend to relationships. And I think that it's really, you know, the F he actually volunteers his, something about his grandfather's memory and his grandfather saying you become friends through playing go.

So [00:54:00] yes, you and I did become friends. And I think it's really beautiful. the way that chief Hong opens up is always in baby steps. It is always about the grandfather first. And I think it's really significant that he volunteered that because he doesn't volunteer much about himself.

Toni: yeah, absolutely. I actually remember the first time I saw. I let out like an audible gasp when he brought up his grandfather. And that made me realize like how little he actually speaks about himself, that it took me back. I was like, oh, he just like offered a little, not just something about his grandfather, but a little emotional nugget.

Tina: Yeah, which now that we, you know, what I think is so interesting about rewatching this scene now that we've gotten to the end of the show, is that when they have this breakdown of, of [00:55:00] communication and Hye-jin that they're like at an impasse about him opening up in episode 14, Hagen sits down with hotshot and how Hye-jin, but also the audience in on the fact that chief hung once he was orphaned, basically, and this will mirror something that Hagen's father says in this episode had to grow up really fast and had to be mature, hold himself back.

He never had anybody to kind of open up to and let loose with. And basically that he had to kind of grow up and be an adult when he was still a kid and she Hye-jin will consider what Chief Hong said. And she will remember the way he was acting on this day with her family and realize, huh for him. Right. What is easy for some is hard for others, for him, this was opening up [00:56:00] because he is over the top and silly and fun.

And. Like basically like, okay, I'm going to literally feed you this food. And then we're going to try the next one. Right? And the father, like this whole meal, this whole dynamic is happening because he's the one who's being kind of like silly and fun and outgoing. And now we know that this actually, if this is bringing out another side of her feely, this is actually another side to him too.

Toni: and the way the father reacts to him too, like, if he really was that grumpy towards him, he would have just hit the chopsticks away. Right. Instead the man opens his mouth like a baby and it snaps food, you know, I'm, I'm surprised she didn't bring it in on an airplane. Like meanwhile, you know, and daddy, you, [00:57:00] and it's just like, Hmm. Okay, fine. It actually does taste good.

Tina: all right. if this trope is the fake relationship that makes you realize things that are real Hye-jin is watching her father and the guy that she has a crush on. And what she's thinking to herself is it is so strange. This is their first meeting. So how does he seem to blend in so, well, how does he make us feel so comfortable?

How does he warm our hearts? So.

Toni: Oh. And then later he calls her warmhearted. That's the thing that brings them together. I, one of my favorite, things in media is when the kind of love starved lonely person goes to, you know, a big [00:58:00] family gathering and sits around the table and is watching just silently, Being like, oh, this is what it is.

This is what it feels like to be in a family. And it's so interesting that, Hye-jin had that moment, but it was her own family, but it was the first time that she felt like she was at a proper family gathering where they were, you know, having fun. They were making noise, they were communicating, maybe not communicating, but they were like being this boisterous kind of fun, loving family.

And she's experiencing that for the first time because of him. And she's the one sitting there being like, wow, this is what it feels like.

Tina: yeah, there is this beautiful sort of circle of everybody nudging each other towards connection.

Toni: Hm.

Tina: And it, it will just [00:59:00] continue because in episode 14, when they're on a break, it will be the stepmother sending extra side dishes for him and her father saying, Hey, come visit and bring your boyfriend too.

Cause I'd like to see him. That is going to be the nudge that Hye-jin needs to have a reason to go over to his house and end the break. And so it's just this like circle of. You know, I mean, I can't think of another way to even put it other than like a circle, because it's, it's the way chief Hong is going to read.

He's like, okay, if you guys are all going to sit here in silence, then fine. I'll be the one to get everybody to like interact. Right. But in the feed, but that is going to sort of sow the seeds that the stepmother and the father are, are at the end of the state going to be like, I have fun today and they're going to remember this fondly and then they're going to in the future, [01:00:00] be one of the many people in Chief Hong and Hye-jin lives that are going to nudge them to kind of heal this rift and come 

Toni: Um, 

that's beautiful. That's beautiful writing.

Tina: yeah. Yeah. Cause as you said, as you said, Toni, sort of the much more common and sort of easier story is you have this big boisterous family and then somebody gets folded in and they find their found family. But here everybody has worked too, and everyone is gaining something, this new family unit Hye-jin and her father talk more and see each other more.

And she's going to in the future, have lunch with her stepmother, the two of them on their own, right in the finale. And they will gain as much from chief Hong joining their family as vice versa. But if we just want to get deep in our [01:01:00] fields in the script book, that letter that we alluded to before that, that do Sheik is writing to his wife. After they're married. This is translated as always by the Twitter account. at lovely he writes to his wife, you have become my family and you gave me a precious father a mother.

Toni: Hmm. Like if you think about that, and then you think about the gas station where they started and now he's calling like he's their family. Oh, that's beautiful.

Tina: I know the father for as awkward as he is says something that's really beautiful and also is a theme of the show and is kind of all at once, heartbreaking. But then when you think about [01:02:00] the way the story is going to unfold is really beautiful. He says the best meal is one that you have with your family and you Du-sik says 

true. 

Beep: And it's been what, 20 years

Toni: Yeah.

Beep: since he's had that,

Toni: And what he doesn't know is that he currently is having a meal with his family. It's just hasn't happened yet

Tina: It also makes me think of the next episode when he's going to have a meal with Hye-jin, you know, in honor

of his grandfather. Yeah. So,

Beep: me think about too, that huge meal that they all had a galleries house. that's a different kind of family, you know, how close he'll be to Director Ji and then Asian is there of course, and even a jury and all of them coming around, like that's [01:03:00] your, your community family

Toni: And he, he does say that, right. Like when they ask about his parents, and they say like, well, do you have any other family? And do, she says, well, the town, essentially, like the town came together to, to help me out and to raise me. And so maybe that's who he was thinking about when he was like, that's true.

You know, meals are better when you're with your family. Perhaps he's thinking about everyone who came together to feed him.

Tina: Yeah. The people here have treated me like family and taking care of me, unpack everything that means now that we know the state he was in, when he came back,

Toni: It's like, you're trying to hurt me.

Tina: it's not my fault. Blame shit.

Beep: gonna write a strongly worded

Toni: Oh gosh.

Beep: Oh, thanks.

Toni: We're just [01:04:00] gonna say, and it's just heart emojis. The entire page.

like at this point in the story we think, oh, it's because he's an orphan. And because, you know, they came together and they helped raise him and they fed him. And maybe some of those people that he won go against, maybe they'd let him win so that they could treat him to a meal. But then really you think about everything that they did.

They, they brought him back to life.

Tina: Yeah. That's now we're at like, duh, this conversation, you had this like beautiful connection the father finds out that he's an orphan.

Toni: Hmm.

Tina: I love that the stepmother, which she's worried about, which she says is you must've been lonely. Right? The is so lovely. Like she's thinking about what that must have been like for you.

The father is all of a sudden it's [01:05:00] triggering so many things internally with him. Right. And what he hopes for his daughter, what he feels guilty about. And it comes out, this conversation is really brutal. She found excuses himself from the table. Talk to me about what unfolds between father and daughter.

Toni: I just, I love how this show kind of sets up these moments of kind of human ugliness and then later. Explains it and shows how it comes from a place of either trauma or worry or love. Like in this moment, when I first watched it, I just remember thinking like, what a jerk, like, how can he speak like that about someone who lost their family.

And then later on you learn why, and it's just [01:06:00] this lesson of like, I mean, it's this through line throughout the whole show, which you guys have talked about a lot in your podcast, just this idea that you never know what people are going through. You never know what their motivations are. And yeah, this moment was horrible, but what it prompted later was actually kind of beautiful.

Tina: Yeah. And just, if we talk about conversations that are just like, you want to bang your head against the wall, right. In for, for a father to say to his daughter who lost her mother, that it's just like, it's, it's a fault in him that he doesn't have pear. I mean, imagine if you're Hye-jin hearing that what's going or you'd be like, are you kidding me, dad?

Like mom died. What do you mean? That's a sin, right? Like that that's a flaw. Like, and it's really interesting [01:07:00] because she was defending Chief Hong on many more superficial things, right. Having to do with class and career and all of that in the earlier conversation. This is her supposed fake boyfriend.

he is listening on the stairs, not only to what the father is saying, but what she dishes right back. And it is like a vigorous defense. And it is both, it is both about him. And it's also about her and her family and what she's lost. And it's like, there's a lot to unpack, but she is not having it.

Toni: It's like a, a rebound or a bigger kind of ripple from that earlier conversation where he was like, Hey, didn't go to your room. And she's like, no. And now he's like break up with this guy before it's too late. And she's like, uh, no, like it's just bigger.

Tina: Yeah. Talk to me about what was going, what you think was going through [01:08:00] Chief Hong's head as he was sitting on the stairs. And the father says, I don't want someone with a flaw like that to be my family,

Toni: I think it just reinforced his own idea that he's not worthy of her. And the look on his face when the father gets up and comes down the stairs and he's standing there listening. It's not anger, it's not defensive. It's just like pure pain and hurt. And almost, he almost like he agrees. He's like, you're right.

I am not good enough for her.

Tina: um, 

Beep: which

is wild because how, I mean, I get it. Okay. I get what he's saying, but the idea of saying that's a flaw that's like almost like inherently a personality trait is so horrible because it's not like, do [01:09:00] she have any control over that nor can he do anything about it? And I feel like Hye-jin looks at it from the, at that perspective, as well as like, yeah.

Maybe she still had her dad, like technically, but in her own way, she was an orphan and she couldn't have held the, she lost her mother. So I feel like there's a different stake in this argument for her. Then there have been in some of the.

Tina: Yeah. On the other hand, I mean, it, as BPU have often pointed out sometimes the worst things that people over here and you think to the epilogue of this episode, when he was a boy at his grandfather's funeral, is when people say the thing that you think about yourself

And 

this 

Toni: it 

Tina: yeah. And the entire, now it's not about being an orphan, but we are, he is stuck in this quote unquote moment of hesitation because he, he, he does think he's flawed [01:10:00] and not good enough.

And then he's sitting there on the stairs, listening to an argument that is, you know, about something else, but he's listening to somebody say his inner most fear and what he thinks about himself, I'm not good enough. And then he's listening to the person that he is acutely aware of in this episode that he now has feelings for argue back.

And it's like this proxy debate that we didn't even really realize as is the undercurrent in the future conversation. He's going to have a scene from now, with the father. There's this undercurrent of what chief Hong is struggling with with respect to self-worth. That's not about being an orphan, but it's like a proxy debate about whether he's good enough for her.

And that's, what's holding him back There's so much to unpack about the father's conversation and do chic. Let's talk about the stepmother and Hye-jin for. [01:11:00] Just like her father Hye-jin apologizes right away to her stepmother. Talk to me about the stepmother, trying to be a bridge between father and daughter.

Toni: Well, I think she sees constantly this lack of communication between them both. She talks about the dad and how he dotes on her and how much he cares, but refuses to show it. But she must see that in Hye-jin as well. So I think a part of this speech is meant to be like, yeah, your dad cares about you and isn't showing it and like, hint, hint, maybe you should show it to.

Tina: love her. She starts off and it's like, let me take on the emotional baggage of holding him accountable for the way that he just acted.

Toni: Yeah, that was great.

Tina: Let me yell at him.

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: You know, you guys are strange enough. [01:12:00] I'll I'll

do that hard part. 

Toni: give him shit.

Tina: Yup. And then she gives Hye-jin, it's really this gift because it's not anything that her father clearly what articulate himself.

She gives her this gift of insight behind all of the things that her father does, that she couldn't possibly know. Right. Like how long he took picking out that plant that he sent to her office, that the picture of her as a kid is on his phone. He checks the weather every day where she is, even though he doesn't care about where the weather is, where he is, and then he, you know, and then he's so annoying to all of his friends because he's bragging about her all the time.

Right. And then as Toni, as you were saying about communication, that flashback where he's playing go by himself, her, the stepmother says to him, if you're so worried about her, why don't you pick up like [01:13:00] basically pick up the damn phone 

Toni: And he doesn't, he doesn't even acknowledge her when she says that. He's just like, oh, and there also might be a typhoon. Like, he's not like, oh no, I couldn't do that. He just doesn't even register. She 

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. The thing is, is that it is a really, it is like an every day really sort of tragic alienation or strange relationship between the two of them when it's clear that there's also so much love there.

Toni: like, she doesn't seem to blame him at all for her childhood. Like, we don't really see her talk about that at all. She's never opened up about that and said, you know, I had to raise myself that flashback was really the only time we saw that

Tina: No, right. yeah. It's like, [01:14:00] she actually is quite, forgiving and generous about how much she doesn't hold a grudge against her father for that, while this show often gives us this, like Toni, as you were saying, sort of. It will give us moments of ugliness, but it will also then give us sort of insight and, and connection.

It also is realistic in that you have all of these beautiful conversations and people gaining deeper insight about one another, but when they all come back together, Hye-jin’s going to be like, can we go get coffee? And her dad's gonna be like, no, I like better guys. You know,

Toni: You have one job just

Tina: it's, there's still them. Right. And they may have more understanding about one another, right? She comes out of conversation with her stepmother, understanding how my dad may, may [01:15:00] be bad with words, but now I understand a little bit more about him. and he does think about me. He just as bad at expressing it, or I need to understand how he expresses it.

And then obviously the father is going to gain a lot from his conversation with chief honk, but it's not going to get fixed overnight. Cause they're still humans.

Toni: yeah. And they're still in that pattern and they're still going to see each other through those lenses.

Tina: Although by the end of the story, they are closer.

Toni: Oh, absolutely. 

Yeah.

Beep: I like that. They didn't just fix it out of nowhere though and make it perfect.

Tina: Exactly. 

Beep: It's 

it's much 

Toni: this show is just so true to life.

Tina: It's funny because people talk about this show all the time about how like joyful it is and how it made people feel good. particularly at a really terrible time in the middle of the pandemic and it [01:16:00] is right. I mean, that's why I love it so much, but it's so clear eyed about how flawed human beings are. Thanks. Don't get fixed overnight. And there's all kinds of landmines in this episode that are going to go off really badly by the end of the series, because people are not perfect. Right? Like, and things are not fixed overnight. Right? There's no, there's no on a different show. This episode probably would have ended with Hye-jin and her father coming together and having this like cathartic conversation and hugging, and then you're like, oh, good.

Their relationship is fixed. Nope.

Toni: holding hands, skipping down the beach.

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's go to the conversation between her father and chief honk. I think it's really admirable that after listening to him say that chief Hong goes outside

Toni: Yeah. 

Tina: to him.

Toni: He could have milked that [01:17:00] moment. He could have kind of made himself the victim and been justified in his anger, but he didn't, he went out to have a decent conversation and meet him at kind of where he needed to be.

Tina: Her father immediately says, I'm sorry with, or without you present. I shouldn't have said what I said. And for a fake boyfriend, he sure seems to know his fake girlfriend pretty well because he says she sure does take after you. She also admits her mistakes quickly. Talk to me about this conversation between two men where Hye-jin’s father is really honest. And quite [01:18:00] vulnerable about probably his deepest regrets in life about the kind of father he was after his wife died.

Toni: Um,

I think part of it is that it's kind of mixed in with that apology because he knows what he said in that restaurant was horrible and that do, she didn't deserve that. And so I think some part of him is like what he does deserve as an explanation about my behavior and to show that, you know, I said he was flawed, well, I'll show him my floss to make up for that.

And I'll show him the biggest lie I have and my biggest regret. And that is kind of failing pagan as a kid.

Tina: Yeah. It's really rough. I watching a, I don't know, she's what, [01:19:00] seven or eight year old packing up her backpack for school while her father's passed out on the floor is pretty rough.

Toni: And then she puts a blanket over him, which shows that like, again, there, there wasn't anger there. It was just, I want this man to be over.

Tina: Yeah, it's really, um, they, she may have had a father, but she and chief Hong have so much in common about the, the way that hush young says and her father, they both use this. They, you know, they had to grow up too fast. you know, she's a kid taking herself to school. Like that's the most basic thing you do as a parent, right?

Is like pack your kid's backpack and pack their lunch. Those are the everyday ways that you take care of your kid. And she was doing it for herself after losing her.

Toni: That's so hard.[01:20:00] 

Tina: Talk to me about him saying her father saying to Chief Hong. It's not that I don't like you. I want her to have a big family. Social, never be lonely again.

Toni: Yeah. It's like his, his wish for her. It's like, it's getting in the way of what's best for her. And he can't see that there is that big family. There, there is the town and people have found family. And so this wish that he's making, it's going to come true. Just not in the conventional way that he wants it.

Tina: I know, you know, now when he, when I watched the scene, what kind of runs through my mind is the way the town all comes together to celebrate [01:21:00] Chief Hong's birthday

Toni: they all, uh, bring food for the grandfather's Memorial dinner.

Tina: Yes. And the way they all step in to facilitate in different ways, their reconciliation, when they're on a break

Toni: Yeah, 

Tina: and the way that this series ends is this big, beautiful, annoying, loving family injecting themselves into the two of them, trying to take their wedding portrait.

Toni: yeah. Being nosy like family should be.

Tina: Exactly in a way that makes you laugh and also roll your eyes and is absolutely like family in all that is wonderful. And all that is annoying, all rolled up together. Her father's wish absolutely is what this show is showing us will come true because the two of them [01:22:00] are surrounded by this found family.

And that's one of the last scenes that the show leaves us with.

Toni: And not only that, like not only does she gain this huge family through him, but she also gets her own family back. Right. Like her and her father and her stepmother are going to be quite close by the end, which again, fulfills her dad's wish that she gets to be a part of a loving family.

Tina: Yeah. Because they both gain, you know, when they get married, they both gain families, even though, you know, even though one grew up without her mother and her father has quite a harsh assessment of himself finally receiving the love that she basically didn't for me. Right. but yeah, it's reciprocal.

They, they both ended up with a much larger circle of families than the way that they began the [01:23:00] story, you know, orphan or not. Talk to me about Chief Hong telling the father Hye-jin received a tunnel of growing up. If not, she wouldn't be able to give others so much love.

Toni: I think it's a really beautiful line and it's a beautiful concept. I think he's being quite generous with him. but again, it's true. Like you don't learn to love from nothing.

Tina: Yeah, 

Toni: he clearly does love her very much. I mean, we saw one scene with her, you know, packing her own bag and him passed out on the floor, but that's not, that's not their whole life.

That's

a few years. And that even during those years, he probably was showing her a lot of love and even grief is love. Right. So she's seeing this grief, she's seeing how much he loved her mother. So he, yeah, I think she was learning a [01:24:00] lot of love for him. And I, you know, you guys talked about that bus scene in previous, podcasts as well.

Like that was, I sobbed at that scene when she stepped off the bus after running away and he's just standing there and he gives her his jacket. love.

Tina: yeah, that was a lot of grace that he offered her because yeah. Yeah. It's also, it's also quite a significant check-in because we don't, at least at this point in the story, we don't get a lot of them about what Chief Hong thinks about Hye-jin as a person, because he, as he said, I mean, he's given her a really hard time about a lot of things. He flat out said that he came close to hating her again, because he thought that she was like judgmental and right. Shallow about a lot of things that they disagree about. But he's [01:25:00] also watched her take care of so many people in this town from Gam-ri’s, you're read to her forgiveness of Nam-sook the way she took care of him when he was sick.

And he describes her as someone giving others so much love.

Then the data asks, do you like her a lot?

Toni: It's such a playground question. I love it.

Tina: It's also really the only question that as a parent, you should be asking of a significant other right. In your child's life because you know, of course there's practical considerations, but really that's the important one. Right?

Toni: yeah.

Tina: Talk to me about his answer.

Toni: Well it like, come on. It's so painful, but also interesting that [01:26:00] as soon as it seems like he has the father's approval, he has to push back against that. So he tells the truth. like, yes, I like her. But as a friend, we're not really together because I think he senses, you know, it's getting there, it's getting close to being quite real.

He's about to get her father's approval. So he, he has to jump ship. He has to tell the truth. There's no reason he needed to tell the truth in that moment. Other than I got.

Tina: that's so interesting. Cause you know what, he tried the whole episode to get his approval and now he's gotten it and implicitly and he's like, and he's going to get it explicitly in a moment and he's going to be, and he's you're right. And he's like abort, abort, 

Toni: Yeah. 

Tina: Like 

Toni: I like it run. Not like that. I don't like liker.[01:27:00] 

Tina: it's also, you know, such a delicious television moment because you have the fake. Boyfriend saying out loud for the first time. Yes. And then immediately under cutting it and coming clean.

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: Let's unpack because there's so much to unpack just she's a warm hearted person. So I truly hope that she'll find someone good she deserves.

Toni: now in the original subtitles, cause I, I think that they changed the subtitles. Once the show got popular, it said a nice person, but what he really says is a good person and that's just so much deeper because you can be [01:28:00] nice, you can be friendly, but it's more important to be good.

Tina: And the central problem is he questions whether he is

Toni: Yeah. 

Beep: And

even further than that actually thinks that he is.

Toni: yeah.

Tina: yeah. 

Toni: And so when the dad says that could be you the look on his face, That's a sweet thing to say, but you don't understand.

Tina: Right. And Shin Haeun is actually she in her, in an interview with her when she talks about Chief Hong's character arc and sort of w you know what she was limited by because so much of his character is a mystery. She actually says, he's going to the word. And the translation is agonize over 

[01:29:00] Hye-jin’s fathers were. Like, this is the huge question. This is the, what if right. Dare to be happy. That could be you it's like the first time since everything happened. That that question has been dangled in front of him.

Toni: 

I did want to just, talk about the moment that the car, when he pulls him close or he's like come closer and he asked, you know, why do you speak informally? And does, she says his philosophy of, I just want, you know, I think everybody should talk like friends.

And when the dad says, you know, not to me, that's sometimes it'll say faster, but that's kind of a harsh, it's more like, not to me, you punk then when they drive off and Hye-jin. Cause I was like, what does he say? Does she come immediately switches to formal speech with her? [01:30:00] Like, he's just so taken aback because he's just like, yeah.

And she's like, yeah. And he's like, huh? No, what? No, the dad basically gives his stamp of approval in that moment because it's like, we're in this for the long haul and you are not going to speak to me like that. Cause I'm your future. Father-in-law

Beep: Right. He's assuming that this is not the last conversation they're having.

Toni: exactly. Yeah. Like a man, doesn't go to the trouble of trying to fix someone's behavior. If they think they're never going to see them again.

Tina: Um, oh, that's such a good point. He was like, you may think you're the fake boyfriend, but I know you're not

Toni: Yeah, exactly. Like you're in my life now and you're going to talk to me with respect young child. And the fact that like Du-sik’s face is just like, yes sir. Like,

Beep: I absolutely love [01:31:00] that they put that in. Cause I feel like by that point, it just, you know, the point had already been made. But I love that that, that, Shanghai would put that in that she just did not let Hye-jin’s father forget to address that directly.

Toni: yes, because he is not the type of man. Who's just going to let that go. And the fact that Du-sik then speaks formally to Hye-jin in the next moment, because he's just so shocked by it. Like, okay, okay. I will speak formerly now.

Tina: Yeah. Look at the beginning of the episode, he had to stop himself from saying I'm miss dentist. Boyfriend.

Toni: And throughout the whole episode, she kept like shooting him look so that he would end the sentence formally. You probably noticed where he would be 

Tina: Yeah. 

Toni: yo,

Tina: Yeah, [01:32:00] it's such a great, it's great. The way they let us check in with the stepmother and father, as they drive off and stuff, others like you, like, you like him, don't you. And she's just holding on to this piece of candy. 

That was her. Stepdaughter's like peace offerings, not the right word, but just kind of like 

Toni: an olive branch. 

Yeah. 

Beep: Well, it's kind of an acknowledgement of like I heard.

Toni: Yeah. 

Tina: It's the first step everybody's taking little steps. Right? And it's, as you said, it's not just Chief Hong. Right? This is a family that is a strange, is a harsh word, but Chief Hong's assessment, like you guys don't have like relationships, you know, is it was a fair assessment.

Beep: Yeah, I think it's fair to say that they're emotionally estranged.

Tina: yeah.

Beep: I mean, they may see each other. Well, of course, honestly, they don't even [01:33:00] see each other to bat much, but when they do, there's not authentic, you know, mingling.

Tina: Yeah. So this, this fake date for all of its ups and downs actually went really well. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Hye-jin follows him up the hill 

Toni: like that's commitment. Like that's a big hill, mountain

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. And as, as we, you know, she, it's not till the end that she's got somebody coming down with her, right. She's marching uphill by herself and this conversation is uphill and it's going to be right. This is a preview of so much that's to come. And I is her trying to, if we think back [01:34:00] to the previous conversations that they have had about the way he lives, this one may have the same central question, but she's approaching it differently because rather than there's still a little bit of judgment, but it's not being judgemental.

She's like trying to understand, and you can't help, but think it's because she's considering for herself. What does this mean for the future? If I really liked this day where I pretended this guy was my boyfriend with my family.

Toni: and later she even says like, oh, I don't know why I asked. I don't know why I hoped. Which makes you think, well, hoped what? Like 

Tina: yeah. 

Toni: to give you some kind of reassurance that it's a smart idea to go into a relationship.[01:35:00] 

Tina: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's pretty, she's a 34 year old woman. These are fair questions. If you're going to be dating somebody, you know, like what are your plans for the future and all of that first let's, let's unpack because the boat on a hill, if we're going to talk about sort of absurdist things in and of itself is something that doesn't on the surface.

Makes sense. 

Toni: You've 

Tina: me. 

Toni: on a boat on a hill.

Tina: No. Talk to me about all of the, all of the layers of symbolism about this boat on the hill for this show, before we get into the specific back and forth of this, yet another conversation that goes around and around in a circle. 

Toni: Well, it's like you said, it's a, it's a beautiful thing that doesn't quite belong there, [01:36:00] it still fits, right? Like you walk up, you see this boat on your head. You're like, that's not where it belongs. And yet I would chill out on that boat. Like, that's a great view.

Tina: yeah, yeah.

Toni: So it's unconventional, but it's like, it's still a nice place to be.

Tina: Kind of like him, 

Toni: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Tina: Yeah. I mean, his, he has carved out a unconventional, but, and still lonely. Right. But beautiful life for himself. Right? Like, and so on one level, the boat is sort of symbolic of Chief Hong, particularly to Hye-jin. Why do you put a boat on a hill? Why is a genius who graduated from a prestigious university working minimum wage in a small town?

Because it doesn't make sense. [01:37:00] Another layer that we talked about in our very first podcast is that boats are very important to throw. And he was at Walden pond writing a book that was a memoir about his trip on a boat that he built with his brother. And that was his tribute to the person who was gone in this story.

The boat belonged to Du-sik’s grandpa. Who we will learn in the next episode, how he lost his grandfather is a source of, would be trauma for any kid, let alone somebody who had already been orphaned that boat in turn is named for a beloved wife. So it's all of these threads sort of tied up in how the boats, both with the real life figure that impart honky Sheik is based on, but [01:38:00] also in this story, a symbol for people who are gone 

Toni: well, I was just thinking something. She said, when he explained how he did it, he got a helicopter, he got a truck. and what she says is like, why. Why go through all that trouble, like why put in all that work for something so sentimental and that's essentially how he's living his life right now. Right?

Like he's working hard. He's always kind of doing these odd jobs just to survive. And it is essentially for a sentimental reason, but he never gives her a straight answer. It's like the Ionesco again, he, he talks in circles. He kind of jokes about it. He gives her sarcastic answers. And it's like you said, she's trying to understand why [01:39:00] he's putting in so much effort and kind of working himself like this when he has the means to live an easier life, he could have kept the boat on the water, but he didn't.

Tina: Yeah. And it, it is, this conversation is, was always frustrating and painful to watch because Hye-jin is she's trained to know him and she's trying to understand him. And to be honest with you, she's going to get over all of these surface issues about what he does for a living and what that means for the future without actually understanding any of it.

Right. Because she's going to decide to confess to him, date him and saying [01:40:00] out loud that she wants to marry him regardless of what he's going to do with the rest of his life or what his career is. So at the end of the day, she goes on this journey, she's going to say during the confession to hell with all that, like, I don't care 

Toni: yeah, it's everything that she said to her father in their living room. She's like, who cares if I make money? Why does he need to?

Tina: right. 

Toni: It's like all of that was there, but she just hadn't worked it through yet.

Tina: yeah. But what does matter is where were you for five years? 

Why do you live like this? It's knowing his past how it impacts him now, what he's thinking and this in the way that he acts in this entire conversation is the way that everything is going to go. Until she finally is like enough. You need to be [01:41:00] honest with me because he, he will not give her a straight answer.

And he's only willing to talk about sort of like the surface philosophy and never answer why. And it's you just sit there now and you watch it. And you're like, oh man, this is just a preview of how the next, you know, whatever months of their relationship are going to unfold until he'll finally answer her question, but it's just Stonewall after Stonewall and you're right, Toni, he uses like he teases her.

He doesn't respond. It's an incredibly frustrating conversation. If you are Asian

Toni: yeah.

Tina: yet, if you're do chic, you just had this conversation with her father.

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: And he said, well, it could be you and your whole hangup, the whole obstacle to whether or not you can be with her is wondering if you're good enough. And that's exactly what she's asking about.

Where were you for those five [01:42:00] years? So it's just like getting hit by a Mack truck with this fundamental central question. That is the reason why he's hesitating about all of it. And it's a catch 22 because he's worried that if he's honest about it, she will want to be with them.

Toni: He must be so exhausted by the end of this day. Like just constantly fighting battles the whole day. with the dad, he was fighting to win his approval. And then once he had it, he threw up those walls and then he was fighting to deflect. And then at the boat with Hye-jin, he's just, you can almost see it happening. Like his, his fists are up. And then when she, he basically tells her to go, he keeps encouraging her to go.

He's like, why are you even here? Go? Like, I feel like any minute now his defenses are going to come down and he's terrified of that. So [01:43:00] he's like, just go.

Tina: Yeah, he tries, he tries so many avoidance techniques, right? She's like, why do you live here? Like this? And then he's handled, are you trying to pick a fight with me? Right. Like as if that question would necessitate a fight, I mean, they have a history of, of her talking down to him, but that's not where she's coming from now.

Right. And he also knows a lot more about her as a person. she flat out asks him, what did you do after graduating from college during those five years? He says nothing. That's a pretty fair question of somebody that you are considering entering into a relationship with from her perspective, 

you 

Beep: Oh, that's absolutely fair. It's absolutely. Especially because she's heard so much about it and the rumors and everything from the town. I would think that in theory, it's a pretty basic fact that you would want to [01:44:00] know from, you know, a perspective partner. She just obviously doesn't know how deep the question even goes, or the fact that at least right now he's essentially incapable of answering it because he hasn't even framed it properly for himself yet.

So what is he going to say? Like I killed a guy. I mean, you know what I mean? It's not going to, he just doesn't even know how to put it in context.

Tina: Yeah. She gives him, I mean, he shouldn't give some. A lot of grace for a long time. And she's like, okay, all right. So you're not going to answer that the past is in the past. Unpack that and how much that is not true.

Beep: It's literally like the antithesis of his entire life.

Tina: yeah. 

Beep: All he lives in is the past. He just tries to out run it every day, but it's, it's really his only focus.

Toni: And then every night he has [01:45:00] nightmares about it.

Tina: Yeah. By the way, the past is currently living in the town because Direction Ji’s is the widow's cousin and the security guard son is right there. So it's all, there's just ticking time bombs of how both, how he's living and who is there, how much that is like not a true statement. And the, and the past is why he can't even have this conversation with her and why he is stuck in a moment of hesitation and like treading water where he can't confess, but he can't deny.

And then she tries to like fumble her way past it. And it's basically just like, okay, but this is just a break. Right? And then he says, Nope, I'm going to live like this forever. content with this life.

Toni: Yeah. Like he doesn't sugar coat it at all. He's just like, this is me. And again, it's another [01:46:00] way to kind of push her away and be like, if this is going to bother you here it is. This is my life forever. I'm never changing,

Tina: It's I mean,

Toni: like no take backsies double stamp 

finalized. 

Tina: I'm also like, are you content really.

Toni: Yeah. You seem, you seem real happy.

Tina: Yeah. All right. So, so as is the case with him, he won't get at the deeper issue. So what they end up having a conversation about is which mirrors, the conversation that he has with the golf club. He's going to default to like the philosophical. And this is like such a classic debate between a realist and a romanticist with a capital R that my daughter's middle school, English class actually watched this scene when they were studying Walden.

Toni: That's awesome.

Tina: they watched this scene about her [01:47:00] reaction about it being a waste of resources. And then they watched the golf club scene where they're talking with the friends. and they're talking about like his lifestyle. So Hye-jin says Hye-jin is arguing on the realist point of view. And if you think about this conversation and we want to tie back in the absurdness, this, this is a circular conversation between a realist and a romanticist about life.

She says that is a total waste of resources, like playing Minesweeper on a high-tech computer or driving a sports car across rice patties. Can you guys unpack sort of the realist points about the way he's living and sort of re like realist with a capital R about what life should be about.

Toni: Yeah. Like, I guess from that perspective, she has a point. I know, I [01:48:00] see both their points, but yeah, like he has these abilities, he has the degree. he has the training, so I kind of like her metaphor. I like the way she said that, you know, you're you have this supercomputer and you're playing Minesweeper, total nineties kid, right?

Like who even remembers Minesweeper anymore.

Beep: I gave, it was amazing.

Toni: I know, I wasted so many hours,

Beep: So many.

Toni: but I was happy. I was happy playing Minesweeper. Like I didn't have a super computer, but like, if, if it's what makes him happy, then who cares if it's wasting his resources as, as she says,

Tina: Right. He argues back the romanticist point of view. Don't look down on the beauty of the [01:49:00] simplicity that Minesweeper has to offer rice patties look magnificent on a summer night.

Toni: It's such like shit eating grin type of a, an answer

Tina: I mean, yeah. I mean, honestly though, somewhere, somewhere Henry David Thoreau and William Wordsworth are just up there nodding and being like that's right. Do chic you've nailed it.

Toni: and somewhere their wives are like, oh

Beep: These guys again.

Tina: Henry David Thoreau's mom is like, yeah, I was doing your laundry while you were staring at Walden pond, dude. It's so funny. Cause I feel like my daughter has learned, romanticist versus realist in, in her humanities class, which is taught with the history teacher in such a different way than I did when it was taught just as an English class. [01:50:00] least in the, 

Toni: learning it?

Tina: so in the us, they're learning it in the context of the industrial revolution, which we, you know, we touched on a little bit about the threat to, natural lands being turned into factories and stuff like that.

And that's like, what words worth and Coleridge were reacting against in the UK and Thoreau and Emerson were in the U S but the sort of backlash critique, the realist, with a capital R was like, okay, but like we have to do shit, you know, like, and slave slavery and workers rights. And if you guys just all effing stare at lakes and trees, we're not going to be able to do that.

Toni: Which fair

Tina: they kind of agree with the same goal, but they have different, like they were like, we can't just like look under, you know, we can't just like stare at a leaf and try and distill the truth of our existence. That's not going to get shit done. 

Beep: Like [01:51:00] laundry.

Tina: the Most famous professor at my university everybody took his class, even if you were like a chemistry major was the romantic poets.

And it was literally like dead poet's society. And it was the only like lecture style English class, but he just, and he was 80 and he just stood up and it was just beautiful. And it was like a Rite of passage to take his class. So I feel like I definitely grew up in the like nineties dead poet's society romanticizing the romanticist,

Toni: Captain my captain.

Tina: exactly.

Whereas my daughter is like, mom, I have to like fight with everybody about why the romanticist or even like, not just like navel gazing assholes and it's cause like, I think because now young people are like, dude, we're in it with like a lot of social causes and like you got to get off. Yes. It's just fascinating. That's the thing, that's the thing about this circular [01:52:00] conversation. They both have a point, 

right? They both have a point. It is not to what? To Chief Hong's point. Living your life should not be all about what society expects actually Hye-jin’s. And you're not happy doing that either. You're miserable sitting at that table at the wedding, with your friends, when everyone's talking about how much money they make and being competitive, that's not actually like, you know, I mean, it's, she's going to find a purpose in a much simpler life, helping people then being in the city and making a lot of money and bragging about it at reunions.

On the other hand, he does have all of this talent. He does have all of this potential. They're going to end the series where she's going to be like, well, maybe you could think about you're this you're the zone chief. Or you could run for city council, right? They're going to find this equilibrium where she's going to find purpose and using her talents in what is important to her [01:53:00] and is financially rewarding and pays the bills.

And, but not necessarily meeting what people back in Seoul with think she should be doing. Cause she's going to turn down a much more prestigious job. and he is going to basically embrace like once he understands it more like her materialism, right? Like he's going to build a box for the beautiful things that she buys for herself.

They they're going to find an equilibrium to us. And she's going to sit there and talk about how she's listening to the ocean and the breeze, right? Like their are going to find an equilibrium. But right now they're talking in circles around each other in kind of the polar extremes of their points of view. And he also, isn't being honest about why the heck he's doing any of this, you know,

Toni: it's just, it's sarcastic answers. Like he's bouncing them back at her. He's not even coming up with his own [01:54:00] metaphors. He's just turning hers around.

Tina: It's so frustrating.

Toni: Yeah. Like, no wonder she marches down that hill and goes back to the house saying like, I don't even know why I try.

Tina: Yeah. And he makes fun of her. Like, it's going to be a long walk down that hill and it's like, man, was that a metaphor for what it's going to be like to date you and get you to open up about like five years of your life? Like, it's insane. The amount of grace that she offers him in basically being like, I don't know what you did with your life for five years and you won't open up about why you live the way that you do, but I'm going to, I'm going to date you anyway and say, I want to marry you anyway. Okay. So, Beep lead us through, should we call this Mi-seon strikes out?

Toni: Oh [01:55:00] God,

Tina: Oh.

Toni: so painful.

Beep: This is a lot. Okay. This is a lot, but I will say this finally, there's someone in this show who just puts it out there.

Tina: To disastrous effect,

Beep: Okay. But she's on her way, you know? I mean, it's not like this doesn't end. Well, this oh, for the love of God, he is the sweetest little baby, little small than ever. There was like let's let's date. Okay. Let's date.

Tina: but 

Beep: Wow. 

Tina: can we talk about how that comes immediately after her thirsting over him in his police uniform? Oh my

God. 

Toni: she's not wrong.

Tina: She's 

Beep: She's really not. That may be just [01:56:00] the nicest thing she could have said at the moment.

Toni: Oh.

Beep: Let's see. Oh, let's date.

Toni: And the way 

she 

Beep: offensive. 

Toni: like you should, you should be arrested two or something for like stealing my heart. No, I like my whole body just caved in on itself. I

Tina: What line? 

Toni: is awful. This is awful.

Tina: I love how it flips it because she's like, she's more of the player and. As he said, like he's quite innocent. The dude literally is going to like, look up a manual on how to date. I mean,

beep and Toni unpack what she hears versus what he's saying, because this is another frankly, absurd with a big, a conversation of people [01:57:00] talking in circles and not getting each other's meaning it's not great.

Toni: it's just amazing. The dichotomy, this show kind of tows with what people say versus what they mean and what people hear. Because yeah, like what he said was I don't go as fast as people do. And so like, please respect that. I need to go slowly. So we can't date now. And what she heard was like hard, no, out of my car.

Tina: Oh 

Toni: Like, and then she just panics. Right. You see it. you been there right with that rejection. You're just like, I have to get out of here, get me out of here. And then the poor girl can't get out of the car 

because it was a police car

Tina: so brutal.

Toni: painful. And she's so excited to the way she says it. Like, oh, you, you worked your [01:58:00] way into my heart. Let's date just, oh

Tina: Yeah. And it's like it, because dating means would mean a lot to him and shouldn't be, he doesn't which actually, if you think about it, she doesn't know this now she reacts the way I absolutely would as I'm getting 

the hell out of here. Yeah. 

But it means that when he does want to do. It's a big fricking deal.

You know, that it means it really means something, but ha I just, I mean, she's just like running in the countryside off highway by

herself. 

Toni: her purchases

just the enthusiasm with which she got into that car when he's like, I'm going to give food to the elderly and she's like, I'm in, let's go. And the look on his face is like, oh, I mean, I didn't invite you, but sure. And then [01:59:00] she like just hubs in the car.

Tina: Oh,

Toni: girl.

Tina: it's the dating pro and the dating novice. Just not understanding each other. I got to tell you my girls Mi-seon and Hye-jin had a really crappy day trying to date the locals have gone. Shit not go well. This episode Hye-jin comes home from that head-banging really frustrating conversation on the hill to her friends on her couch with the mascara running down her face.

Toni: collapsing. She should have just had a giant tub of ice cream on her lap. We were going like full breakdown.

Tina: I didn't see ice cream in Hye-jin’s freezer and they really needed it.

Toni: No, absolutely.

Tina: Oh my God.

Toni: I guess the aided, it all would Du-sik when the power went out. Hey, 

Tina: oh,

Beep: [02:00:00] Wow. 

Tina: ah, 

Beep: Went right for it.

Toni: I did.

Tina: oh, Hey, it's not often that like melting ice cream is like a sexual innuendo. So I appreciate, 

Toni: yeah. 

Tina: my favorite dessert

Toni: And also 

like in Korea, it's kind of a big deal to eat ice cream with someone it's kind of a dating 

thing. 

Tina: Oh.

Beep: tell 

Toni: Yeah. I had a friend who said that her boyfriend was eating ice cream with another woman and was, she was very upset about it. And I was so confused because I was like, it's ice cream. I eat ice cream every day. And she was like, no. And she explained to me that in Korea, eating ice cream with someone is kind of reserved for a romantic [02:01:00] activity.

And so in that scene, when she's like, do you want to eat ice cream? That's why his face is like, 

really? 

Tina: Oh, it was 

Toni: Yeah, 

Tina: was like a Netflix and chill moment,

Toni: it is. It's almost like, yeah. Do you want to come in and eat ramen, but it's not as sexually suggestive. It's more like romantic because it's a, it's an activity that couples do together is eat ice cream.

Tina: Oh my God. I'm so glad you told me that because when I visit there, it's good. I would be like Mi-seon, just asking random people to have ice cream and it would be

Toni: Oh, all the time. Yeah. I like ice cream 

is my ice cream is my boyfriend. So,

Tina: And never let you down. Never 

Toni: does 

no, 

Beep: wait, in your case, the ice, cream's going to be jealous.

Toni: you know, I always have to stick with mint chip because if I go to chocolate, peanut butter, 

you know, mint chips is going to be jealous.[02:02:00] 

Tina: you could always just going to be a politician and have three flavors at once though.

Toni: Cheeky, 

Beep: Wow. Someone steer this ship in a different direction.

Tina: Listen, it's three north Americans discussing it. It was always going to end up in a raunchy place. All right. Words. We had words, failing miserably.

Toni: terribly

Tina: Talk to me though about actions when we saw needs to get to soul, because her mom is having surgery.

Toni: sweet baby boy, just like leaps to action.

Tina: Yeah. 

Toni: Like 

Tina: sort of soul.

Toni: we should all be so lucky to even have a friend who would drop everything and do that. Because at that point she thinks that's what they are

Tina: Yeah.

Toni: [02:03:00] now, you know, he has definitively said, no, I don't want to date you, but I'm still going to drop everything and drive you on my only day off.

Beep: Yeah, that's a, that's a big shift from what she considers this like an outright rejection.

Toni: Yeah, 

Tina: Yeah, but you know, what's interesting is both our two best friends who were striking out, trying to date these local guys, both of them perceive that they were rejected, 

Toni: Yeah. 

Tina: post kiss for Hye-jin. And, and I don't know, we're not dating. Let's not date for me song, but then these guys in the next 24 hours are going to drive to Seoul and sit with her while her mother has surgery.

Do she's going to take a knife for an Hye-jin

Toni: Oh my gosh.

Tina: next time these guys get [02:04:00] together, they're going to be looking at each other, like, wait, you were in Seoul, wait, you got stabbed. like,

Toni: And they give each other the eyebrows,

like, 

Tina: yeah, I see you.

Toni: but don't worry. Like I got stabbed for her platonically, like,

Tina: Oh, my God. I was just spit out the water I got stopped for you put tonically. Oh my God. what is, what is really beautiful about it though? If, if me song is sort of the urban, date first, get to know somebody later, both of these relationships unfold with friendship and kind acts and to varying degrees, emotional intimacy before anybody kisses. and it's really interesting thinking about a woman writer writing in 2022 and [02:05:00] writing about, you know, Mi-seon’s later going to be saved.

There's no guide to dating, so just do what feels right. But I think it's interesting. She's making a point about these are really good guys, and they are friends and supportive of these women before they're dating them. 

Toni: yeah.

And even though they might not be following those, you know, conventions, those dating rules, that we all seem to have agreed upon. They're still like just the best guys, the best little sweet, pure hearted boys.

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. They're like not following the rules at all. And yet they are both of them like a total wish fulfillment characters in terms of the kinds of, I mean, it's actually not that hard in real life to be as awesome a boyfriend as they both are, but, but they are [02:06:00] fictional like ideals of how. Mentioned treat their partners,

Toni: Yeah,

Tina: which takes us to the other love triangle of the show.

Toni: barf. I'm sorry. I don't know what you're talking about. Other love triangle. I don't, it 

Tina: well, I mean, maybe it's, it's a male character, Yeong Guk. Who's maybe not acting as an ideal. my daughter likes to call Ionesco of rejection,

Beep: It will never not love that.

Tina: because,

Toni: And that's amazing.

Tina: cause if you're, if you're, if you're talking about whether or not you're going to date at Owens cafe, you're not going to date.

Toni: No,

Tina: Talk to me about this terrible from 

Toni: I mean, first of all, can we [02:07:00] acknowledge his hair? Because it's so awful. Like he plasters it to the side. are you trying to look like a Wiener?

Beep: Wow.

Tina: Well, all of it is not being himself, right? He's all glammed up. He's using words that are not his, he memorized a random poem.

Toni: Uh, and his face when he does it, it's like he's orgasming. As he says the poem,

Tina: Oh my God.

Toni: watch this leave again. It looks like he's having a time.

Tina: It's so bad. I mean, I am sucker just sitting there listening to all of it. It

Toni: Losing their shit laughing.

Tina: It's terrible. She's like, what is he doing? Are you it's like, oh my God, I think he memorized a poem. If the other [02:08:00] dude in the room is like, what are you doing? It's not going well.

Toni: Oh no.

Tina: So if we have, if we have many, many circular conversations in this episode show, he is the MVP for saying what she means.

I never had romantic feelings for you, 

Toni: Like ever get over it, bud. But even though she says it so plainly he doesn't hear it.

Tina: Oh, you're right.

Toni: Like he doesn't accept it. cause he says, is it Hwa-jeong’s fault or is this because of Hwa-jeong? And she says no, like clearly no. And yet he still internalizes that and just decides that that's what it is.

Tina: Well, yes, absolutely. But also let's unpack it from Cho-hee’s perspective because her face is like, wait what? At first, [02:09:00] because, because she has romantic feelings for harsh drunk. And so he's asking a question and she's hearing a question and that meanings are like, you're right. Like she is trying to be straightforward, but you're right.

They are talking past each other. So it is another absurd conversation because he's like, is this about Hwa-jeong? Because he couldn't possibly, how could she possibly turn him down if it 

Toni: Yeah. 

Tina: his ex-wife's meddling, right.

Toni: 'cause I mean, they had this epic romance in their youth. Of course she must be feeling the same thing is.

Tina: Right in his head. They

Toni: Yeah. Never happened.

Beep: that always blows my mind about this, about like her being your first love and all this stuff. I'm like, dude, she barely talk to you. What are you even, where do you get this from?

Toni: And they barely knew each other.

Tina: Yeah. I mean, think about, think about what

they were three friends, right? [02:10:00] Hwa-jeong was observant enough to understand, even though Cho-hee wasn't being open about her feelings to understand what was going on with her, even though they never talked about it. Yeong Guk was just off in his own world. Not understanding anything about the dynamic between all three of them.

And so it's just brutal because Cho-hee is being asked a point blank question, which has a very different answer for her than what he's asking. She does have feelings for Hwa-jeong, but that's not why she doesn't have feelings for him.

She's not attracted to him. She's never going to have feelings for him because she's gay.

But

Toni: And also because he's him,

Tina: yeah. Well Hwa-jeong is a forgiving woman.

Toni: she has very particular tastes.

Tina: so that takes us to the scene at night at the pier [02:11:00] young cook blames Hwa-jeong for his rejection. 

Toni: So like asinine,

Tina: yeah, although I will be annoyingly devil's advocate

Toni: wait on me.

Tina: when he tried to, before he talked to Cho-hee, he went to his ex-wife and he said, want to let you know, like, as a courtesy of my, as my ex-wife and you know, we're raising a kid together that I'm going to be asking, show he out. And Hwa-jeong said to him with no explanation, not her, anybody, but her.

Toni: Yeah, that's a good point.

Tina: So from his perspective, even though it is, he is making a bunch of conclusions, which are not allowing for the fact that maybe he just isn't attracted to him. It seems like there was something going on, right. Because his wife had like drawn this line in the sand. [02:12:00] And then the next conversation he has with Cho-hee, who is also a Hwa-jeong friend from when they were all together is basically like, absolutely not.

So he, you know, he's rationalizing why he was rejected, but there is a little bit of a kernel of why he extrapolated. If that makes sense,

Toni: Yeah. That makes sense.

Tina: unpack what's going on in Hwa-jeong’s head when he says that to her, because it's just brutal.

Toni: she knows, right. She knows why. And she's probably thinking like, oh, here's another thing that he's blaming me for. Like, he blames me . For the . Divorce. He blames me for our unhappy life. And now he's blaming me for this missed opportunity that he thinks he should have had.

Tina: It's brutal when says I'm sorry that it didn't work out with your first love again.

Toni: Oh, oh, that hurts.

Tina: It's brutal. 

Beep: Can I at least say that [02:13:00] I'm really, really glad that young girl never finds out, like her kind of situation. And that that's really why overall, because there's a million reasons for anyone not to like him,

Toni: Yeah,

I agree. 

Tina: Okay. So I

Beep: know what I'm saying? Like, cause you mentioned earlier, like, oh, it's, you know, she's never gonna like him because he's gay and I'm like also she's never gonna like him. Cause he sucks

Toni: Yeah.

Beep: as far as how he's acting right now at the very least, I don't think he's is a bad guy, but he's so just has like a complete lack of self-awareness right now to where like why would anybody be attracted to you?

Tina: yeah, he's up to and he's also not being himself, right? That whole confession, he wasn't dressed like himself. He was borrowing somebody else's words. Like what did it actually have to do with what he feels about choky as like a person,

Toni: yeah.

Tina: you know?

Toni: And it, it [02:14:00] definitely shows that he doesn't know her very well.

Tina: So, you know, all of this is obviously dragging up the whole reason why they got divorced for Hwa-jeong. And it's like, are you serious? Like she has to sit here and be blamed. For him missing out again on the person who she overheard him, be like, she's the one who got away. And I settled for my wife.

It's just brutal. And what's actually, I find kind of moving in the background, Nam-sook is in the background. And she gossips about this all the time. Right? Why did those two get divorced? Remember like a couple episodes ago, it was like a hot, multiple times hot topic of gossip. But in the end she has a front row seat, a very rare front row seat of an argument between the two of them that gets back to why they were divorced.

And in this moment, Nam-sook is actually a wonderful [02:15:00] friend to hush monk

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: on rewatch. I have to say I surprised myself because I will admit that along the way, I had a tough time with Yeong-guk’s character for much of the show. I surprised myself in the empathy I felt for him when he said you wanted a divorce, just because of my socks, I begged for forgiveness.

And you kicked me out that day. Now none of that is to say he wasn't deserving of her ending the marriage because of what he said, but she never told him. And so from his perspective, it's like, he thought everything was going fine. And then one day his wife screamed at him over the laundry and said, get out and ended their marriage.

And, and she's [02:16:00] literally saying to him, you'll never know why I wanted a divorce and now she's dangling in front of him. Guess what? It wasn't about the socks, but I'm not going to tell you.

Toni: Yeah, this is the first indication that he has that it, that there might've been some deeper meaning.

Tina: Yeah. I can't imagine if my spouse walked in, yelled at me about doing the dishes and then said, I want a divorce. I mean, I hope I would have enough self-awareness to think maybe it's not about the dishes, but still like ending a marriage and that, and not getting an explanation for it is not great either.

So I found myself on rewatch. I may be out here on a limb by myself, but I felt some empathy for young cook because it's just like, again, it's like tragic mismatch. It may not be tragic if you're not rooting for them to get back together, but it is tragic miscommunication in the context of a marriage ending because the story is postulating to us by the end that [02:17:00] these two people still had feelings for one another, it was just a train wreck of miscommunication

Toni: Okay. But did that empathy really last when you saw that hair, would you 

look at that hair and go? Yep. That's true.

Tina: Yeah, he's drunk. It's all messed up. I could let the hair thing go. Well, I mean, there are, there are parallels between all these, these relationships, right? And there is something in the past that Hwa-jeongrefuses to open up about and is perpetuating the two of them talking in circles about why they got divorced, which is parallel to do chic holding back about his past and why he has such a frustrating conversation with Hye-jin and is also stuck in this perpetual, going around in a circle and not going after what he actually wants.[02:18:00] 

Toni: Yeah, there's a lot of that going around.

the only time that I really started to like, him is when we got that flashback to when they were friends and they ate that fish together and, you know, she ate the, I think and he shared it and it kind of reminded me like, okay, these two were best friends before they got married.

And I kind of wished that we had seen a little bit more of that because then I would have empathized with him or I would have at least like seeing why they ended up together. Cause throughout the whole show, I questioned their relationship and just assume that they wouldn't end up back together because I never saw any kind of loving, moments between them until I saw them as friends.

Tina: Yeah. I mean, he remembered her mum, her mother's Memorial and, you know, missing her [02:19:00] cooking. And there are some hints, but I agree. I, I, where this love triangle ends up is not where as a viewer, I expected it to. but yeah, I won the thing. I, I will tell you that I love about this scene is when he grabs her arm is like, absolutely not.

Toni: She like whips him with a towel.

Tina: Yeah, absolutely not. You do not grab her arm. It's like such a feminist, like woman's sticky up for another woman. And like anytime an arm grab happens, like that kind of arm grab in like a show. I'm like, Ugh, I don't like it. So I fly. It was like fist pumping Nam-sook, like broke that up.

Toni: Like, I don't care if he has a little kitten grip, you just don't do it.

Tina: Yeah. Talk to me about Nam-sook saying to Hwa-jeong, it's better to talk about it. If you bottle up your emotions, you'll get sick feelings are like poop. [02:20:00] You have to relieve yourself regularly to be healthy. I was expecting, but maybe it's the one we need.

Toni: Yeah. Yeah. She needs to print them on pamphlets and just start handing them out to the whole town. Cause everyone is emotionally constipated.

Tina: she's a good friend. I like these quiet moments with Nam-sook when she's like, she has told multiple people today, I'm not, she may be the town gossip, but she told Hye-jin, I'm not going to tell everybody what happened with Chief Hong. Somebody else is already doing that. And I, she tells how young, I mean, she just had a front row seat to one of the mysteries of Gongjin.

And she's not going to say a word in that moment. She's Hwa-young’s friend.

Toni: Yeah.

Tina: So it's better to talk about it. Don't bottle up your emotions. You'll get sick. Guess who the editing cuts to you guys alone, [02:21:00] emotionally constipated to borrow a phrase from you, Toni. 

Beep: That was a unintentional,

Tina: yeah, yeah, no, no. Meaning behind that hard cut 

Toni: Yeah, no, 

Tina: So and describing his character arc. We don't have to. Now I think we kind of had a feeling. He did the show after his conversation with Hye-jin shows him contemplative he's alone on his boat. Thinking, looking at the sea, then he's alone at the pier at night, looking at the sea. We don't have to wonder anymore about what's going on through his head.

What Shin Haeun said is that he is agonizing over what Hye-jin’s father said to him. Why can't it be you. He has a conversation with Director Ji. And what I think is interesting is in an episode where Hye-jin said the [02:22:00] past is in the past, both of these men are currently haunted by the past, but it's leading them in to kind of react in different ways.

So talk to me about the flashback with Director Ji where he remembers, he thinks back on when he almost asked Hye-jin out.

Toni: I just love that they have positioned these two men who are amazing, like good men. They both deserve her. And like they haven't made him some asshole in that flashback. I was rooting for him so hard. I wish that I could like time-travel and just be like, go one month earlier and just ask her one month earlier.

Cause this guy's such a dick. He doesn't deserve her. And I wanted, you know, little baby Direction Ji two to get the girl. [02:23:00] In that time, 

but not now.

Tina: Right? 

Toni: I just love that they have made them both. So, so amazing.

Tina: it's, it's like, it's like a law. I mean, beep and I have talked to a bunch about how this is a love triangle that I actually enjoy. And I really, I really like both men and I really love where both are stories and up and they both really have their own stories. cause Director Ji is a three-dimensional character with his own realizations and his own happy ending.

while intricately tied up, not only in this love triangle, but also the protagonists arc about the past. But right now he is haunted by the past because he's like, I hesitated. I'm not going to do that again. And like what the hell like chief Hahn was pretending to be your boyfriend, 

Toni: and when directed, you said, like, why does it seem like this [02:24:00] job is an over and do she says, well, if it looks like that, then it looks like that. Like, he's basically admitted, like it's a little more cheeky than this. I think in the subtitles it says, well then maybe it isn't. But what he actually says, like, if it looks that way, then it, then it looks that way.

But so he's being cheeky, but directed, like he basically just admitted to Director Ji that, yeah. I also have feelings for her.

Tina: Yeah. Which in, I flat out says in her interview that when Director Ji says, quote something serious to do chic about his acting as a boyfriend, doesn't seem to have had to do chic response. If it looks like that, it looks like that it was the first time that you Sheik showed his true feelings to others.

So it's not a flip answer. He's actually saying it out loud for the first time and to his rival [02:25:00] that's if, if, should have said that every step do chic takes in this show towards being with Hye-jin is a step of courage. That's a big step.

Toni: That's thrown down the glove.

Tina: Yeah. So then we have this love triangle coming to a head at the end of this episode, Director Ji calls Hye-jin and basically is like, Hey, when I come back into town, I really want to have a conversation with you. And she's like, okay, like, cool, poor, poor Director Ji. Hye-jin is focused on the street lamp.

That's

Toni: Yeah. Like she's not even really listening to him.

Tina: It's so sad because he's pulling a U-turn to say, I can't be late again, but he already is.

Toni: Yeah. Like she's gone.

Tina: She he's talking to her and she's looking at the streetlamp because she [02:26:00] knows that Chief Hong did it for her. And all at the next time. They're all going to be together is that hospital scene where it is so painfully clear that he understands that he's probably too late. Again,

Toni: yeah. And do she also knows exactly why he came back to town?

Tina: he came back to confess guests, who else is on his way to confess. And this is really interesting because we could have made assumptions or conclusions. And we as an audience, wondered why he's at her, why he's at her house when she's being attacked at the beginning. But our supposition, it turns out is correct, because what said in the script book and the interview is if the assailant didn't come.

He might've tried to confess, but he [02:27:00] doesn't think he will ever succeed. Even after going to meet her with a resolute mind, Du-sik would have been hesitant. In fact, after the assailant breaks in Du-sik is alone with Hye-jin in his house, but he does not confess. She then quotes the gatekeeper poem and says it was his heart that he could neither confess nor deny his love.

And so like, we watch him walking, right. And he's been in her words, the writer's words, agonizing over what Hye-jin’s father says. And then he remembers the why can't it be you? And he's basically like makes a decision. I'm going to go over there. Talk to me about your thoughts now that the writer has given us insight into what was going on in the character's mind when, before we could only just kind of have from our own observations.

Toni: Yeah. Like, I always assumed [02:28:00] that he was on his way to confess, but I also think that if he had, even if he had worked up the nerve to do it, I don't think it would have played out in this big, romantic way that we'd like to imagine. I don't think even Hye-jin was at a place where she could completely accept him yet because she doesn't know a lot about him.

Trust him X like to that point yet where she's not curious about those five years and how he's going to live his life. And yeah, I think that if he had gone and there had been no assailant and he did it properly, I still don't think it, it was time.

Beep: Oh, yeah. I'm with I'm with Toni. What would have come out is not going to be as good as we were fed. And it also just, I don't think it was going to be what she needed to hear.[02:29:00] 

Toni: Yeah. That's a good. 

Tina: Yeah. Cause what I think is interesting is, um, I like that it's not a straight line, so. Wrestling with a lot. And, and Shin Haeun ties that to his, you know, it's not just to self worth, but like his trauma, how hard it is because he hasn't opened up to anybody in so long. And so I think it's, I think it's very human that you can be like in one moment, like I'm going to do this.

And then in the next moment, it probably wouldn't have gone the way that you had in your head, that moment, where you decided that you had courage and then you were in front of that person. And she even says that in the next episode, in the confession, he was going to turn her down because he he's quote unquote holding onto a list of reasons about all of the ways that this [02:30:00] isn't going to work and that he doesn't think he'll ever succeed.

All of that has to do with like his own feelings of self worth. So imagine, imagine like, try and imagine the sad confession, if it had been hung, do chic opening the store first to Hye-jin. Like

I, 

Toni: bang, but a whimper.

Tina: I like you, but I'm not good enough. So just letting you know,

Toni: Yeah. Yeah. 

FYI. 

Tina: jeez. Yeah. But I mean, you know, everything that is that decision to go over her house though in the course of the story is still monumental because his actions over everything that happens taking the quote unquote, not platonic knife for her and all of the emotional, all of the emotional, real, emotional intimacy that happens the next. [02:31:00] About him opening up about his grandfather and then inviting her to the Memorial. It's just this like ripple effect of him opening up to her, which then in turn will push her to go out on that limb first, which is kind of what needed to happen. To be honest, this was ever going to be, if everyone's feelings were ever going to be realized it kind of needed to come from her first.

So if this whole episode had this underlying question, it could be you, the episode ends with it is not Chief Hong sitting in the psychiatrist office. The mask is totally off and the contrast is really stark in his demeanor. Don't you think?

Toni: It was like a whole different guy,[02:32:00] 

Tina: So the psychiatrist says you're sleeping better. So we're going to get to the root of your fear. Do you still feel that those around you.dot dot, and then it gives us flashback number one, his grandfather's funeral. Talk to you about your feelings about that flashback guys.

Toni: like, and I realized that these characters are just written in to create these moments, but can you imagine being at a funeral and. Hearing someone say like, oh, this kid brings death upon people. Like I would flip a table and no one does anything. They're just like, oh yeah, good point. Like,

Tina: I know I want to flip a table [02:33:00] watching it.

Toni: Yeah, And he's just like in earshot, just sitting there listening little guy.

Tina: oh, it is though people say casually cool things like that all the time.

Toni: Yeah. Good point.

Tina: Like, oh, she's really bad luck. Oh, I guess that was just fate. Like I, you know, casually cool things all the time, but the thing is bringing it back to what Beep is points out the things that people say that echo what may already be going on in your head, because if you were Hong Du-sik and you had lost both your parents, and then you ran in to your house and found the dead body of your grandfather and only guardian in the world.

How many kids have that kind of luck?

Toni: Yeah. [02:34:00] So like he was likely, already thinking it.

Tina: And the thing is, is that it's like a foundational wound,

Toni: I wonder if like part of him was like, oh, why me? Why is this happening? Why have I lost all my people? And then they say something like that and that it implants in his head and he's like, oh, it's me. It's my fault.

Tina: especially when you're a kid hearing adults say that.

Toni: Yeah. 

Cause I mean, adults are always.

Tina: Then it cuts to, and we couldn't possibly have understood whatever. All man, an adult hungry chic in that suit that we saw hanging in his closet at the beginning of the show that the two people that this Memorial is about bought for him, [02:35:00] walking into the Memorial for his friend after almost taking his own life.

And then his widow is going to say to him, it's your fault. And it should be you who's dead and stuff.

Toni: and it just cuts into him and stays there.

Tina: I mean, this is it's like, there is this casual wound from people around him and then you cut to like 20 years later. And it's, it's a nightmare. I mean, the fact that you said that to somebody who is suicidal is to, I just, and blaming them for the death of their only family. [02:36:00] Like, but this is, this is the central question.

And this is what has been percolating under the surface. This is why he is hesitating. Cause the psychiatrist asks so everyone you've loved is left you. And he says, yes. And I'm to blame it's because of me.

Toni: And, you know, he believes.

Tina: Yep. And not only that, not only does he he'll someday tell Director Ji I'm not worthy of her butt, but he also feels shame and not even being able to talk about.

you know that this, the thing is the stakes are real. Like what is holding him back? The stakes are real people in real life. This isn't just something he's made up in his head at 

fundamentally traumatic points in his life [02:37:00] when people should have been grieving together, which is what we see at the end of the show.

People were blaming him, whether it's casual bystanders, whether it's as Yeong’s widow, whether it's security, guards, wife, they all blame him. This is a something he's making up in his head. These are the real stakes. These are things that people have said to him in real life. So he's stuck in a catch 22 because if he opens up to Hye-jin, why wouldn't she think the same?

Toni: And there's also this element of like, he believes that it's his fault. He believes that he's this bringer of death, bad luck charm. So if he opens up to her, if he gets close to her, he thinks he's putting her in danger.

Tina: Which if you were him at this point in his life, that's not an irrational thought. He's lost his mother, his father, his grandfather, his best friend, and somebody [02:38:00] tried to commit suicide because of what he views his like his mistakes or failings. It's just so you know, first watch this episode, you knew that there was something deeper that he was closed off about, but the whole, like he's holding back is just go so deep.

Now that we go back and rewatch it. And the end, it's a lot,

Toni: I was convinced he had a wife and child that died.

Tina: me too. Cause they, cause they always hit the photograph.

Toni: Yeah. And you heard a crying baby in his nightmares

Tina: Yeah, that's that's him. I assume thinking about another child, who's lost a parent, but because of him, 

Beep: Okay. That wraps up episode nine. So thank you very much, Toni.

Toni: Thank you for having me. This was [02:39:00] awesome.

Beep: And you're going to come back with us a little bit later in the show towards the end and it will not be emotional at all. So go ahead and don't prepare for that.

Tina: It won't be like therapy for all

Beep: No, 

not at all.

Tina: none. 

Beep: So next time we're doing episode 10 and we will have with us fanfic slash romance writer. Extraordinary. Gino is going to celebrate a great romantic comedy probably up there in the best ever for romance on television. So in the meantime, and in your own lives, please keep in mind. If it looks like that, then it looks like that. We'll see you soon.

[02:40:00]