Hometown Cha Cha Cha Ep 5 - Welcome the Rain [Podcast]

Streaming Banshees

Podcast Transcript

Podcast Episode 7

Episode title: Welcome the Rain

Date: March 22, 2022

Show: Hometown Cha Cha Cha Ep 5

Beep: Hello, and welcome back to Streaming Banshees, your TV book club on the internet. This is Beep you can find me on Twitter @Beepsplain. Today's podcast is about Hometown Cha Cha Cha episode five. Just a reminder, we are a rewatch podcast. So spoilers abound. We talk about each episode in the context of the entire series.

So you need to have seen it before you join us. Please go watch it and then come back. I can play. You can find the podcast on our website, streamingbanshees.com or on Twitter @TVbanshees. I am joined as always by the lovely CC.

Tina: Hi guys, you can find me on Twitter @acapitalchick 

Beep: And we have a new guest today, new to you, not to us. Welcome Bubs.

Bubs: Hello, so excited to be here.

Beep: So tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're recording from what your deal is. All that jazz.

Bubs: Well, I'm recording from San Diego and I have been here since the start of the pandemic when I had to leave New York City because it got a little bit apocalyptic . So I am currently in my parents' house, which is super fun and, yeah, like it's going really well. 

Beep: Some of us have been forced into, situations like Du-sik in some ways. So tell us, why do you love Hometown Cha Cha Cha?

Bubs: So I like to be surprised and Hometown Cha Cha Cha totally surprised me. I like to play things in the background while I'm doing stuff. you know, like fun, light stuff that I can like, kinda like look at here and there but don't really need to pay that much attention to, so I, I threw it on.

And I was super shocked to find myself like six feet from the TV, intensely watching every scene and like, like, what's next? What's next? I was not expecting that. And I love when a TV show is so good that like, you don't have to try to pay attention. Like your brain's like nothing else is happening today.
We're just doing this and it, and it was also like my first show that was, I think that I watched that was week to week where I had to like, wait for episodes and God, that was hard. I think it's like it is light and airy, but it's so well done. It's an intricately woven story.

All the decisions are thoughtful. Characters are well thought out. And so it's just like such a great reminder that things don't have to be, you know, grim, dark sad, and to be high quality things worthy of praise in, critical attention, you know? 

Tina: Amen. 

Bubs: Yeah, so seriously, it is a fantastic show and I'm so happy that I watched it

Beep: It's incredibly lifelike. And I think that's where it's heart lies

Tina: Yeah. In all of its joy and all of its sorrow. Yeah. Yeah,

And all, yeah, And also Bubs, you are our first legitimate surfer we've had on the podcast. On opposite opposite end of the Pacific ocean, but still.

Bubs: Well, I don't know if I could consider myself a surfer now but I did surf in high school, I was part of the surf club. at my high school. And I had a special made board that was green and it had a little ballerina deckle on it I chose . And I, yeah, so I loved surfing and then I went to college and I came back for summer and I called up my friend, Nicole, and I was like, oh, let's go surfing.

And so we did, and I was in the water for like five minutes. And all I can imagine was like a shark swinging up beneath me and like eating me. And I had like a panic attack and was the last time I ever served.

Tina: So you you were not relaxing on your board looking up at the sky, like Chief Hong?

Bubs: You know what I guess not, but, but to my credit, not eight months went by in a man in San Diego was killed by a great white shark. And I feel the deep down I had the intuition to be like Bubbles, mm, no, no. no, no.

Tina: Well, I'm so excited. You've joined us for podcasts on other TV shows. And one of my favorite things to do, particularly with the two of you, maybe more than any other two humans on earth is dissect angst and point of view in a slow burn. And man, if episode five isn't a perfect one to do that I don't know what is,

Bubs: Mm.

Tina: So we got a listener question and I wanna read it, and then I'm gonna read some excerpts from an interview with Shin Ha-eun. And I think that is a great way to sort of kick off the discussion for this episode. So we got a question on twitter and we love reader questions. We hope they'll keep coming.

This one is from @windsong 22, and she wrote “it puzzles me that Du-sik must be aware of his own inability to be open, even as he tells Hye-jin to let people in. And even later, how was he planning to continue his relationship without telling her anything. I hope you will cover in your talks.”  Now in the script book for Hometown Cha Cha Cha, there is an interview with Shin Ha-eun, which we are gonna be using the translation by the Twitter account @lovelyshinminah. And we're very grateful to all of that hard work that she has volunteered to the fandom, translating the interview into English. I'm gonna read some different excerpts that pertain more to sort of where we are at in the story. This is quoting Shin Ha-eun after watching the second half of the drama.

“If you look at Du-sik’s actions you can feel that every step that Du-sik took towards Hye-jin was courage. Many readers wonder when Du-sik felt his love for Hye-jin and how much he loved Hye-jin. It was because Du-sik had a trauma. I wanted to leave it up to you to decide when Du-sik started to feel for Hye-jin. I didn't write with any particular moment in mind. However, from the eiologue of episode one Du-sik was concerned about Hye-jin.

And in episode four, when Hye-jin talked about her mother, he felt a fond sympathy towards her. And at the same time he accepted the kiss. And in the epilogue of episode five, he felt a sense of relief and fell into a deep sleep because of Hye-jin's presence. It would be right to sequentially imbue and express that he was already in love at some point.

Du-sik’s emotional lines are not directly revealed until the middle part. This is because the narrative was hidden and the character of Du-sik was unable to express his feelings honestly and outwardly. He may have felt unfriendly or omitted for this reason. If Du-sik’s love for Hye-jin is expressed in some small way, it is unconditionally my negligence. I couldn't find a better way and I hid it in the epilogue.” End quote.

What I love is we do exactly what Shin Ha-eun is inviting us to do. We're going to be interpreting what we think is going on in his head, in this episode, and sort of this tug of war between his heart, he's obviously drawn to her, but also his head and how he keeps sort of pulling back. Do you guys have any thoughts? 

Bubs: My initial interpretation of this question is the fact that, you know, we talk about in the episode, talks about a lot how Hye-jin is judgy of other people and, in particular of Du-sik and the way that he chooses to live his life. But he is also judgy of her, because they both have very, they both keep people away, but they go about it in very different ways.

He's never in one place for too long. He's always helping people. He's going from thing to thing to thing, helping, like what, where he can make things easier for somebody else. He never takes anything for himself. So he's able to never be in standing long enough to think about things or to let people in and that's the way that he does it. I mean, he thinks that he thinks that's a better way because he thinks that he is adding value because he needs to add value. He has all this guilt and he has to make up for it somehow. So he thinks that that is the superior way to go about keeping people out.

Versus he sees her, being mean, openly judgey a little bit . And so he thinks that, his method is better. And so he judges her from that perspective. And I mean, I think that his method is better, but neither are healthy. And so I think that it's almost the intersection of them moving beyond, it's, it's kind of like their little lock and key that enables them to open up together. 

Bubs: I don't think that they could do it on their own. It's just their own little brand of what's the term, like, poking each other, you know. It's like they're eliciting the response that the other needs to, to come out of their shell. because like, for example, Hye-jin doesn't just like give into his nice villager vibe.

She's like at first annoyed by it. And so she doesn't give him anything. She's not like, oh my God, thank you so much. You're the best, like everybody else. And he's kind of feels like he has to get that . And so in trying it think to get that is, is where he ends up unwitingly opening up a little bit and maybe realizing that it's not so scary and that he actually kind of likes it.

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the way their arcs intersect and the way they change one another, they're doing different things because what he is telling her is you don't have to live by other people's rules and expectations. I don't, right? And what he learns from her is being, as he puts it later on, is to be honest and brave about deeply personal things, which she is able to be almost from the beginning with him. You know, with certainly sometimes with the aid of alcohol, but, but she's able to open up and talk. 

Beep: I think that she caught him so off guard. From the beginning, he just didn't even know what to think. He's carrying around so much guilt and so many things that he feels like he needs to atone for. And this question, you know, says that he must be aware of his own inability to open up. I think he is and I think he isn't. I think there's a little bit of denial going on in there because what he is so desperate about hiding is in the past. So I feel like he does think he has good relationships with people now. And not that he needs to run and tell everybody, but I, I think to a large degree, they're inauthentic because he won't give of himself.

So I don't know how aware he is of it though. 

Tina: Yeah. I mean, he's wearing a mask and, and I'll point out where I think the mask slips off and comes back on in this episode. I do think generally it's far easier to give good advice than it is to follow it yourself. So I, I think it's very human and very realistic for him to be like run in the rain, take risks!

And then when it comes to emotionally going out on a limb and sharing the things that he is the most ashamed of, it's hard to actually put that into practice in your own life. I think  if we take the reader question and what Shin Ha-eun describes as every step he takes toward Hye-jin, for example, grabbing her hand at the end of this episode and running out to the beach is an act of courage from him given his life and given what he's experienced and given sort of where he is emotionally.

This is someone who, you know, not only has gone through what he's gone through, but he's essentially been alone for like over 20 years. So  every step he takes step forward, he takes steps back. It's a journey of that. And I think go, just picking up on what Beep said, he seems to be able to do it in the present, right?

Grabbing her hand to run on the beach, being in the present, when she confesses to him and giving, like, I just can't help it anymore, but it's a journey for him to be able to reckon with the past and plan for the future, if that makes sense. And I think it has everything to do with precisely his being so kind of at war with himself about the past and being able to open up about some of like the deepest traumas that have happened to him.

I think that that's why we have this long and tortured journey all the way through the episode of 15. Does that make sense? 

Bubs: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's like, in those moments, it's like those little lies we all tell ourselves, like, it's, you know, I can be somebody else. I don't have to be the person who carries that, but it lasts for that impulsive moment that you're running in the rain. Before you remember that you, you can't just step out of who you are and, and the things that have happened to you  they're always like, not that far behind. So yes, you can have those moments, but it's a greater journey in, in the long run that you have to surpass.

Tina: Yeah, and I think it's also quite realistic and I can think of not only in my own life, but other, you know, other people that I know in real life, that you are attracted to somebody, drawn to somebody, start a relationship with somebody. And then that real journey toward intimacy and talking about the things that are hard are things that unfold over the course of a relationship.

And that intimacy is something that you constantly have to work at. And you know, I say that as somebody who's been married for like 20 years. So I find it very realistic that he in a moment, grabs her hand and runs to the beach, accepts a kiss, kisses her after she's basically like, I can't keep it in anymore because he can't either, but he hasn't worked out all of the details about how is this gonna work.

Because sometimes it's just about what you feel. 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Beep: I find it everywhere. And I feel like it's misattributed all over the place, but when you're talking about advice that you give, but don't take, I love the quote. “I sometimes give myself admirable advice, but I am incapable of taking it.”

Bubs: It's so true. It's it's I mean, I speak for myself when I say as someone who has ADHD, this one doctor who his field of focus explains it as like it's knowing what to do and not being able to do it.

Beep: Boom.

Bubs: Yeah. So I totally get that. And I also think that it's so much easier for us to look at  our friends' life in the situation they're, they're in and, and have very much clarity about what they should do and what would be best for them, but when it's your life and you're in the thick of it, it's very hard to have that same clarity and perspective and know what to do.

Beep: Especially when you have big trauma hanging over you.

Bubs: Yes, yes, absolutely. 

Tina: There's also a huge potential risk and downside to opening up to her, you know. He will state later to Director Ji I'm afraid she'll be disappointed in me. What if she had reacted the way other people, many other people he was close to in his life and blamed him? So I think that there's many, many layers to sort of this emotional reticence of Chief Hong, but it is a fascinating question that I want us to keep in the back of our minds, because there's many moments during this episode in particular, where I think we watch him making choices, either to pull back or seize a moment.

I personally find that push and pull between head and heart to be very realistic. Particularly now that we know the character's whole journey and I love this kind of moment in a slow burn where they kind of dangle. Yeah, there's feelings here, guys, but we're not gonna give you what you want just yet.

Bubs: Bread crumbs.

Tina: Delicious. And, you know, we mentioned in our last podcast that when Hye-jin tried to pet pet the hedgehog, she got pricked, and this is the episode where our two hedgehogs are going to prick each other 

Bubs: Yeah, they are. 

Tina: Ah!

Beep: There is no way around that.

Tina: nYou guys are so dirty minded. It's just gonna get worse if I try and dig myself out of it. But you know, her hang ups are about class and career and money and all that is tied up in her journey that we will see a snippet of about how she has to unpack. What about her self worth is tied to that and is tied to what other people think. And he's gonna pull back because of all of the things that we just talked about. 

And who knows what and who pretends not to know what is like a slow moving multi-car pile up car accident on a highway in this up episode, that's going to continue to the next episode, because point of view, as it turns out on rewatch, now that we know that Chief Hong remembered the kiss all along, makes it really interesting as we watch how he reacts to certain things.

But I think it's also an episode that is laying out two different points of view on the definition of success. We've got sort of the city elitism as voiced by Hye-jin and later on, when she starts to kind of be going through her journey, her city friends will come back into the picture to kind of give voice to it.

But sort of, you know, if you go to a fancy university and you have the potential to earn a lot of money, why aren't you doing that? That's success. Doing part-time jobs and earning minimum wage is not quote unquote successful. And then you've got, you know, Chief Hong's definition of success, which has been learned very much the hard way that does not always mean success.

And he's living his life a very different way. So in, in many sort of conversations, both with the villagers talking about who's better, a dentist or Chief Hong, and then Chief Hong and Hye-jin talking to one another. This episode is like all about point of view in a lot of, in a lot of really interesting ways. 

So. Beep and Bubs you wake up next to a guy who, on some level you like on the floor with him instead of the bed, super hungover, you have to do a walk of shame out of his house, through a town to which you have just moved. And then your best friend holds up her phone and says, everybody in town thinks you slept with him and you can't remember what happened. 

Bubs: Oh God.

Beep: She basically like presented herself to his whole family on the way. She had time to think through something to, I mean, oh, that poor thing, because she knows that she's being judged and, and as it stands right now, she doesn't even remember. It doesn't seem like anything that happened. she's pressed a little later, but I mean, right now she's just like, wait, they're judging me for something.

Did I even do that? She doesn't know.

Bubs: She doesn't know whether to be like, actually like, you know, shy about it or not.

Beep: Yeah. Do you stand up and say, I didn't do that or do you stand up and say I did do that and it's none of your business like

Bubs: It's like ambiguous shame.

Tina: Yeah. You're  sitting there.  And you're like, oh my God, did I sleep with him? Why was I on the floor next to him? Like what? I mean just also trying to process that while also being hungover while also having people like asking you questions right away. Like, I, I just feel so badly for her.

And then when she's sitting there and it all starts coming back. Talk to me about Hye-jin the drunk pole dancer. 

Bubs: I love that journey for her.

Beep: Oh yes. Love it.

Bubs: It's like she keeps herself so professional and it's just kind of like a hint of her more rambunctious self that we obviously want her to feel comfortable, expressing not just while drinking. I loved everything about it.

Tina: It's  was really fun. Just to pick up the breadcrumbs. She has kept his birthday as her door code and is shouting it, like looking at like the snack machine. But  what is so interesting, but also kind of like hurts my heart a little bit is the way their demeanors flip when they're drunk. 

Bubs: Mm-hmm.

Tina:  She's so like I'm the conservative professional put together woman. Always worried about what people think as particularly as we see the morning unfold. But then she's running around pole dancing, totally, but also still competitive. Like aren't I awesome at this, like doing the exercise on this and he, I mean, he takes that really like fun, like selfie.

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: He seems a little bit sad and now I can't help, but think of the scene, we'll get in a few episodes where, when he gets drunk, he's alone and he starts crying and he's like, don't go.  So it's really like, I just think it's so interesting how they seeded this earlier and the way that drinking brings out other things that are under the surface for both of them. 

Bubs: Hmm, that is a great point.

Tina: Talk to me about Gongjin's gossip girl. 

Beep: XO XO, how much do I love her?

Bubs: The first time I watched that scene, I was so mad at her. I was like this bitch, like just really like blowing it up for everyone. and obviously now knowing what we find out later, and I, I had forgotten that there was that one little hint scene, I think, in the very first or second episode, where she's clutching that, that wand, that child's wand. So from this perspective, I can only see it lovingly . 

Tina: Yeah. Obviously she's Gongjin’s gossip girl, but when  they actually are together and she's actually emotionally invested in Hye-jin, she's not gonna say a word. So, you know, it's kind of, it's, it's funny, it's it, it obviously is creating a big source of sort of the external pressure that's gonna cause conflict.

But it's also, yeah, it's a little bit sad because you know, she's walking by herself and the reason why she's so worried about what everybody else is doing is because this is a distraction from her own  loss.

Bubs: I love how everyone's in on it. I love that. Like, everyone wants to know, like it's so small town. And it's all, it's big town everybody's like that. we're just 

Bubs:  There's no judgment here.

Tina: That is part of human nature. That is part of living in a community. And as much as Shin Ha-eun has wonderful things to say, and her show is a love letter to community, she often also shows us what can be annoying about living in a community. And that is that people are up in your business and the audience wants to know what happened just as much as the audience.

Bubs: No, that's the truth.

Tina: Yeah. You know, like we've called on the podcast “The Fourth Mystery of Gongjin” is we're never gonna know how they ended up on that floor next to each other. Right. Yeah. 

Bubs: Is that, does that fan fiction exist? You would know better than I would.

Tina: Mm there's. I don't know if people have addressed that specifically. 

Bubs: Well, if anyone listening, who would like to address that specifically?

Tina: Even the grannies are in on it. The grannys are in on group chat 

Bubs: Again, it's accurate. The biggest gossip in our family is my grandmother, you know, it's like, I'm like, oh, my mom was like, oh, what happened with them? What did your neighbors say? Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, whoa, grandma, you know, more than I do when you don't even live here.

Tina: All right. So I love how also just adding to the comedy, how Mi-seon’s diarreah is a constant driver of plot in this episode, 

Bubs: Of the secondary romantic couple.

Tina: But also our first couple because imagine having this morning, not knowing what the hell happened last night, having to walk the village alone, everyone's gossiping about you. And then the guy who you don’t know whether you slept with shouts at the top of his lungs, “Hey, you didn't do the dishes last night?”

Bubs: I mean, that's where you strangle somebody, right? I think that that's admissible in court. 

Tina: But part of this also what this episode plays with is point of view, because she knows everybody's gossiping about them, but he doesn't. Also just like, honestly, the villagers are so hilarious. Nam-sook is like the comedic MVP. She goes, “you look so tired. How wonderful.” Like, congratulations on the sex. 

Bubs: It really did feel genuine.

Tina: I mean, the guy's 35 and they've never seen him date anybody, right? Like they're so excited. 

Bubs: well that one, the husband of the pregnant lady, I can't remember everyone's name, when they're very blatantly spying at them eating breakfast and you know, everyone's like, you know, did they both? And he's like, okay, they're they're adults. They probably did. And it's like, it's like in the back of it's like, yeah, they're adults.

They probably did. Oh, although we know that that's not what happened, ha 

Tina: yeah. he also is. He's also looking through the window and he's like, so pretty.

Bubs: yeah.

Tina: Yeah. With, you know, with Hye-jins, like everyone's probably saying how good we look together. I'm like, yes. At home, on my couch and also the people in the village. All right. So I think it's really important to set up. Ooh, this is a very interesting conversation. And we're gonna to follow it all the way through from sitting down to breakfast all the way through their conversation afterwards. I think, I think point of view is really important here. SOAN. we know, we now know that she is a woman who has already gone through many experiences of like people talking behind her back and being looked down on, she is new to town. She doesn't know these people. She's embarrassed by their gossip.

She's, you know, self conscious. I think we've already kind of talked about last couple episodes. She's definitely more of an introvert than chief Hong. she herself doesn't remember what happened? So you've got like a lot of nervousness, right? And so her, her not knowing what happened last night, her paramount concern is shutting this down because it's really uncomfortable to be the center of attention this way.

And I totally feel for her, right? Like it, you're walking through a town and everybody is taking pictures of you and talking about it. You've only known these people for like a month and you yourself can't even remember what happened. Right. And particularly, I don't know, like as a woman you're like, oh my God, like, did I sleep with him?

Like what? Right. So 

Beep: Also the only person she would talk to about it is involved in this. 

Tina: right. Yes. 

Beep: like right up there in it.

Tina: Yes. 

Bubs: she's either that or on the toilet. So there's really just no room there.

Tina: Yeah. 

Beep: I mean, why not? Both?

Tina: true. True. She's definitely on the group chat, sitting on the toilet for sure. Yes. 

Bubs: Yeah. Well, I mean, as, as women, I think we can all relate to the judginess of it. Like we never want to be judged. in small town, America, it would be very uncomfortable to be, witnessed on potentially a walk of shame

Tina: I mean, the walk of shame is not generally something that I think most of us would celebrate everyone in our community talking about. So, and again, particularly as women, I think we pro I think it is fair to say, no matter what culture you come from, right. Women kind of bear the brunt more about whether or not you slept with someone and people judging you for it, the men do.

Right. So, 

Beep: Totally. And this also is not only community based. It sounds like this is something she's not comfortable with based on, you know, her, her conversations with me son or whatever, you know, her being. So, held back or whatever. Like it's not even something she would necessarily do. And now she's stuck in a position where she don't even know

Bubs: well, she doesn't even want people to think she has a boyfriend. Really?

Beep: right.

Tina: Well, true. Yeah. Nissan says even kissing somebody is out of character for you taking that initiative. So, you know, walking home in the morning, hung over, maybe having had a one night stand with a guy is not something Heian normally does. right.

So she's sitting down with all of that going on in her head. Now let's talk about chief honk. He woke up his head hurt, but he's kind of, you know, this, this girl who fascinates him, right? Kissed, kissed him last night, 

Bubs: it's a good day. 

Tina: it's a, it's a good morning. 

Bubs: knows what happened.

Tina: His head may hurt, but he remembers it. He members how they ran around town and she was acting the way she never has acted before.

Right. He closed his eyes and he kissed her back. He woke up in the middle of the night and for the first time, probably in his entire life, he saw somebody next to him. He was able to exhale, smile and go back to sleep. He's shuffling around his house. He finds her umbrella. He's kind of fondly like, oh, I guess she was in a rush.

Right. He starts cooking and he offers to her. Have you eaten yet? So his intent was to invite her, to come eat at his house. And the girl that kissed him last night, asks him to breakfast in of everyone. What do you think he's feeling? 

Bubs: We're gonna get married.

Tina: I mean, at some level you're not expecting what she then says. So did anything happen yesterday? Did you guys watch his face? it's what but then what's interesting. What's really interesting is what happens next. He remembers they kissed, she doesn't. He decides to pretend that it didn't happen. Why do you think he does that? 

Bubs: I mean, I think that. It's it's like the disappointment that like, I mean, I think a few things can run through your head. You're like, were they too drunk? is she pretending that she doesn't remember? this thing that maybe was like a fun thought for me now is like something different. and so I think it's it's between like his pride or giving her an out, or just pushing it all away altogether by just pretending it doesn't happen.

I think it is. I can see how it was the logical decision for him.

Tina: Yeah, it is, it is, he's got a decision right there, right? It's it's like the decision tree is either I say, yes, we kissed now we gotta deal with it. Or, wow. I, I have an opportunity to not deal with it and I can just continue as we are. I kind of orbiting her, but not have to deal with it. And I think it's not surprising given now everything that we know about him and given the way that S UN talks about his journey, that he took the opportunity to step back.

Beep: I think a lot of his response actually had to do with fear because he gave himself the opportunity, especially when he sunk into that kiss, man, he didn't just let her kiss him. He gave him, he made a choice, just like you said, CCE, he makes choices and he chose to do that. And so he in, in his own way opened up and now he feels rejected.

So does she remember? He doesn't know, did she not like it? He doesn't know, you know, so he has no idea where she stands and that place of like, of indecision and discomfort is not one that he's going to sit in.

Bubs: Yeah. And it's kind of like the universe saying like, oh, you thought you could have things

Beep: Yeah. Ha ha JK. Bye

Bubs: you don't deserve them because that's what he feels. And it's reinforcing 

Tina: Ugh, 

Beep: Right. So maybe she's just rejecting him too.

Tina: and, and, you know, I love the way you, I love the way you put that, that he sank into that kiss. I love that. But he also, he also did that when his inhibitions were down. Right. He was drinking too. and so what felt natural in the moment? It is now the morning after the cold light of day hungover. She doesn't remember, and it's harder to take that risk, and have to be the initiator then to receive that attention and give into it, you know, and it, it really is kind of, Ugh, I feel so much for both of them now that we, you know, I feel like we just know these characters so well, and it's like, God, when you guys just get through this, you're be like one of the most amazing TV couples ever in supporting one another.

But right now it's like so painful. and also like he reaches over to clean her mouth and she freaks out and, and she's basically then is like the only reason why I'm at breakfast with you was to everyone that there's nothing going on between us. 

Bubs: yeah. And, and you know what? It's like, you, you totally understand it from her perspective, but it crushes you from his perspective. It's just like such a terrible collision course. of, of what they're trying, they're each trying to, to do. and her reaction has nothing to do with how she feels or doesn't feel about him.

It, it all has to do with preserving, who she is trying to be. I guess 

Tina: Yeah. And she also, I listen, everything that we know about Hain, even in the conversation that's gonna happen in about 15 minutes is that when she, she puts herself out there emotionally. So if she knew that they had kissed, I don't think she'd be handling it this way. You know? So it's just kind of this kind of like, like tragic is a strong word, but it, you know, it's this car wreck of what one person knows and what, what another person doesn't right.

And, and, and how that is feeding into, everybody's sort of already predetermined in securities or life experience. And it's not like chief, Hong has a lot of experience opening up to people, right? The, the writer of the show describes every step he takes towards her as taking courage because of everything he's been through.

And so he did that last night and now she doesn't remember so it's just BR it and, and she's basically like he thought, oh, the girl that kissed me, invited me to breakfast and it turns out it was just to convince everybody in town that we're not together. Oof. 

Bubs: Ouch.

Beep: And he doesn't actually know if she knows or not. That is, that to me would be the hardest part. If I were him.

Bubs: Yeah. Cause it's like, are, wait, are we, are we agreeing to pretend that this didn't happen or 

Tina: Yeah. And later, 

Bubs: very different things?

Tina: yeah. And later on, he's when he realizes because of the way she's acting that she does remember. I think he probably misinterprets it as to her being like embarrassed because of the differences between them. Whereas really she's re reeling from, I do remember in the sky's pretending that it didn't happen.

Right. So it's just, honestly, it's like, it's like a multi-car pile up and things keep happening and cars keep crashing because, because of the very cleverly orchestrated order of who knows what, and when, the scene, the, that even the first time around absolutely crushes me is when they go up to the register to pay.

If you just concentrate on Kim's son ho face where he's like, oh, it's my lucky day. you know, and like, he's gonna go pay for her. And she says, I don't let let, just, any guy pay for my meal. And he thinks that she's gonna pay for him. And then she pointedly asks to split the check. 

Bubs: Mm.

Tina: He looks like dazed and crushed. That is a moment where the mask slips off and he is disappointed. Like it hurts. Can you imagine that this girl kissed him last night? And then the next morning I don't let any guy pay for my meal. 

Beep: Yeah. And that,

I think that's brutal on even another level, because that could just be a friend thing

Bubs: Yeah.

Beep: and she's still just like rejecting him so hard and, you know, and he kind of thought like, oh, well you got it. No big deal. I'll get it next time. Like that idea. And then she's like, no, I'm not paying for you either.

Tina: Right, right. 

Bubs: Well, I, I personally, I like going have CS because I feel like really uncomfortable if it's like, especially if you're gonna go on several dates and it's just like, it makes me uncomfortable to have somebody pay for me over and over again. but in this case, I, I think it is different.

Tina: But he's at, but he's basically getting ahead of himself and he's like, okay, this, well then thank you. And she, when she, pointedly is like, no, we're splinting the bill. It is, it is a rejection of connection of any kind. Right. Would beat the saying, right. Like imagine saying that to a friend , you know, like, I mean, it, it, it, it, and then what's really interesting is the mask goes back up. They walk outside and he's cheerful and is like, Okay, well, let's go get coffee. So the, but the thing is we'll know, from future episodes, he absolutely remembers that moment. And what she said about not letting any guy pay for my meal, because when director G comes into, she comes into the restaurant and they're all there.

She's like, oh, director G like, take, take me out to, to a meal sometime. And he's gonna be like, I thought you didn't let just any guy pay for your meal. Right. So like, he, that this moment sticks with him, but the mask is back up and he's like, let's go get coffee. Which I think is really interesting because it's like, he wants to keep it going. 

Bubs: yeah, he wants to be near her. He likes that feeling.

Beep: I think there's another layer to this, if I may, and even if I'm going too far with that, I don't care. It's fun. I knowing the difference between them and how many times she said this and, and such, you know, that he doesn't have a lot of money in this and that. And he knows that she's so money oriented. I think he was actually kind of excited when he thought she was going to pay for him because in a, in a way that is one of her lovely for her to let go of some of her money to give somebody something that is like the same way he would make them something.

So when he kind of potentially thought he was getting that gesture and then for it to be immediately struck down, that's just, that's what beep is thinking over here.

Tina: Well, yeah. 

Bubs: it that way, but yeah. but I do like how he brings it up later with the other guy, because it's such a jealousy thing to do to suddenly get like, very, very pedantic about like what was said before. 

Tina: Absolutely. But that what I, what I think is so interesting is all of the layers, because you have to watch his face to understand that this what maybe seems insignificant to Hye-jin moment, like crushed him. right. And then you have to remember it after few episodes from now, when it comes up, when he is jealous.

Right. And so it's all so subtle, but you're right. It is completely realistic, right? When you like someone, whether you realize it or not, you're gonna file all of these details away the same way she files away, whether or not he wants to order snow crab at a restaurant. Right. Like all of these things got filed 

Bubs: it's an in depth scrap book that leaves nothing behind.

Tina: in your mind. I mean, and we also know like this, this kiss had is like torturing him the next episode. Right. He's gonna like read a poem called first kiss and sit there and be like, ah, right. It's really interesting to watch the choices he makes, the way he's reacting to things when she's not looking versus when she is leading up to her.

Very bold, brave question. Do you like me? Talk to me about what happens next.

Beep: It's kind of brutal because the way she, she is contextualizing it it's basically, it feels like she would be making fun of him. Like, I feel like what he hears in connection with that is, oh my God. Do you like me? Because I do not like you.

Tina: Well, especially coming off of the heels of like, if you think about it from both the perspectives, she's like, why is this guy asking me to coffee? Why does this guy rescue my shoe? Why is he always around? Like, do you like me? And he's like, she ask them to this question coming right off of her refusing to even let them pay for one another's meals.

Right. So like, what are the chances he's gonna be like, yes. Even if he did realize it , you know what I mean? Like that's not exactly setting you up to feel like you should go out on a limb. On the other hand, she is going out on a limb to ask is then for him to say, he doesn't just say, no, he says don't be absurd. Ouch. 

Bubs: That is an ouch.

Beep: I feel like they're slinging burns without like necessarily meaning to, or they're just coming from a different place because they're not having the same conversation.

Tina: They're not. And it's like a train wreck of, of hurt feelings, right? 

Bubs: Why do you think she asks? Cause it's a big question to ask. Like, I feel like that's a hard question for most people to ask

Tina: I mean, if you come off of their breakfast, it's like he reached out to touch your mouth. He is talking about splitting the bill. Everybody's talking about them being together. This guy has been, if you think about, even from episode one, all of the things that he's done for her I'm mean she's not wrong.

All of the things that she points to are, what we, as an audience have been keeping track of as evidence that he likes her. Right? 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: yeah. I mean, I, I like, I don't know. And she is somebody, as she says later on who doesn't like things to be in limbo. I right. She's gonna say that in episode 14, I, I don't like somebody who likes the status quo, where things are vague or gray her, she wants to know.

And so she's gonna address it head on the same way that as soon as she figures out, I like him. I'm gonna go drive four hours straight and go say it to his face right away. you know, but I mean, when he says don't be absurd, I mean, I think we can, from his point of view, understand why he reacts that way.

Anybody wanna unpack that 

Bubs: well, yeah, because he she's just been like throwing dirt at him all day, basically. and I think it's like, I can kind of see why, I mean, obviously he has, he has feels, but from her perspective, like he's not acting like we need to make sure that town doesn't think something's going on. It seems like he's reveling in it.

And maybe on some level he is, but he also like a, he knew what happened. B he thought they were getting closer in a, in a way that he maybe hasn't felt in a very long time. And, and so all these new things that felt exciting, and maybe like a fresh, splash of water for the first time in a long time she's she's like ruining it.

Tina: yeah.

And I also think he's in, I think he's more impervious. To this kind of gossip than she is, because number one, he's from there and he's known these people his whole life, so he can push back on them being annoying and gossiping in a way that if you're a newcomer, you you're not on that level, able to do a, in your able to do.

He Also, has had, he knows that they gossip about his missing five years. He's got way bigger things that people are gossiping about. That this seems that this seems quite minor in comparison. It's just not gonna, like, people are wondering where the hell he was for five years. And it's like his deepest, darkest secrets of his life compared to people wondering what he did last night with this woman.

It, it, it apples and oranges, if that makes sense. 

Beep: Also, I don't get the impression that this is a new group chat. So it's really interesting that he's not on it.

Tina: yeah, he just is not, he's just like, what, what are you guys doing? Stop taking pictures of us. Like, he's just not gonna partake in that, right? 

Bubs: well, he's a he's awesome. Chief. Hong. When are they not taking pictures of him? Like I take pictures of him.

Tina: Yeah, same. But you know, what I think is fascinating about the way that this unfolds is when each of them feels, disappointed maybe on his point on his part, embarrassed. On her part, they revert to the thing that they're gonna have to struggle with. He closes himself off the wall, goes back up and he is not gonna talk about his feelings.

Even if on some level he does like her, she immediately reverts to class and she says, where not a good match. 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Tina: Talk to me about Haan, lashing out at him in that way, given everything we now know about her 

Beep: Okay, can I take the no, you ding girl side for a minute. she, he literally just told her that he does not like her. Like, why is she continuing on this path? 

Tina: cause she's embarrassed. 

Beep: I know, but it's just kind of, it's, , it's kind of hard to have to listen to it when she was like, do you like me? And he's like, no, and now you're still gonna stand here and tell me how much I suck and why like, no.

Tina: I know because she's basically like, well good because it wouldn't work anyway. That's a, that's a, that's a reflex to being embarrassed. 

Bubs: it's like you're right. It is. It is absurd.

Tina: Yeah. What saw is going to trigger in her remembering and what still makes her so upset that at age 34, she still will walk out of her room and go into a bathroom alone and upset about it is when her boyfriend put her down for class for lack of money, for the way she dressed. And it was humiliating. And I think it's really interesting that her reflex when she is embarrassed, because she has gone out on a limb to be like, do you like me?

And he hasn't just said, no, we're just good friends. Don't be silly. He said, it's, that's absurd. That her reflex is to assert her career, her money, that they are in different classes, especially given that, that are, those are all of the same things that people used to make her feel terrible about in college, 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Beep: And there's no one in many, many cases, there's no one more judgemental than someone who's come out of the situation that you're still in.

Tina: right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Bubs: And it's kind of like, she uses those things as, you know, some of us eat Yemy things when we're stressed out, she surrounds herself in designer shoes as like, okay. Having a tough time in the career, but we're gonna get something pretty to remind ourselves who we are now and that we're gonna gonna continue to be that person.

so it is something that she clings to as a sign of, as like a, a support line , which is funny, you know, she does draw strength from that. And I don't think, I don't know that that's wrong or, or whatever, but it is, she's using it here again as a support line. 

Tina: As armor. Yeah. The same 

Beep: Yeah, it's a deflector.

Tina: Yeah. The same way she put those high heel shoes on in college. No matter how much they hurt her feet here, she's going to reassert. Okay. Well, I'm better than you anyway. So wouldn't have worked out now. There's a lot of layer to unpack because she does say one thing that I actually think does make sense that people need to have important values in common in order to have a relationship.

And what we now know is that the two of them actually have all of the important things in common. They both worked their butts off in college, whether it was getting scholarships and getting top grades or whether it was working. All kinds of jobs and basically living off sausages in her backpack. Right.

They both like are in different ways, help people. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: And they've always been that way when people need help. They're not the kind of people that just like walk by and are like, that's somebody else's problem. And all of the other things that are different between them, she's even really gonna go on a journey where she's like, well to hell with all that other stuff.

Cause all that other stuff doesn't matter. Right. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: it's also really interesting to think about what is going through chief Hong's head now that we know, not only did he go to a prestigious university, but he used to work in the investment world and have all the money in the world. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: So 

Beep: Probably. Substantially more than her.

Tina: for sure. 

Bubs: oh yeah. 

Tina: yeah.

I mean, it was like what, there was that newspaper article. It was what like fund of the year, right? Like, so, so he is sitting there absorbing what she's saying, knowing that he could have all that and chooses not to because he went off a cliff chasing all that. But then, and this is kind of painful. 

Bubs: Hmm.

Tina: all right.

So put away all of, if we put all of that to the side, The thing that she's saying on the most basic level is you're not good enough for me, right. When it comes to what actually matters, whether he's a good man worthy of her, that is actually going to be his deepest concern long term. And what he's gonna say to, to, to director G I just don't think I'm worthy of her. So it's sort of asking this whole, like who's better than who and, and his chief Hong is the hero and he is the pride of Gagen and this whole thread that runs through this whole episode and the hint that they give at the end about his nightmare, which is basically, repeatedly in his nightmares asking this question, do you think you deserve to be happy?

Like, do you think that you're worthy of this? His internal answer has nothing to do with money, but it has to do with the acts that he has, what he did or didn't do and who got hurt because of it that he thinks he isn't worthy of her. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: And on that level, it's real, ugh, it hurts my heart to watch this conversation, because even though she is talking about things that ultimately don't matter this question of whether he thinks he's good enough for her is something that we're gonna end up grappling with for the rest of the show. 

Bubs: mm-hmm for sure. And I kinda felt like he, you know, money and love. are kind of different forms of power. If you think about it, love, you have the capacity to hurt somebody greatly. because of the way that our world works, money wields, a lot of power and has a huge effect over people's lives.

and he was, you know, at his job, he was in a position where he was very close to money and he saw the power that it held by how it kind of just ruined lives. And he, he was there. He was a part of that, whether it was his fault or not. and it's almost like with love, he kind of feels that same like hum of power and it scares him.

He doesn't wanna be in that place again where he's able to cause the same kind of damage , that he was before. So that's kinda like another, I think, angle to the way that he has fear and guilt and, shy away from things that can repeat the pattern that he's already lived through.

Tina: yeah. To quote another show that we have talked about before on a podcast, it's the losing that haunts us, 

Bubs: Mm

Tina: right? It's that risk. And he steps back repeatedly from it repeatedly, from love. Then he basically is like, I like, I pity you. You're so calculating. And he walks away pissed. meanwhile, everyone in the village, the chat room's gotten together in person and they're having this, they're having this

Bubs: They're.

Tina: Yeah. They're having this same convers They're.

talking about who's worthy of the other.

And who's better than who. And what I think is so fascinating is that this city, and that's Hye-jin representing that point of view in, in this episode. But later on, when he goes to the golf club, it'll be her friends from college, they view who has the most money and has the more prestigious job as being who is as being sort of the definition or the bar of who is better.

The village views. Who's better by who can do what and chief Hong can do everything. And Allan can do is fix teeth. 

Beep: I like how

Bubs: In shock 

Beep: comes up though. Like if she can do that or if he can do that too. Wait, can you also do that?

Tina: Yeah. I mean, they're basically, you know, if you look at it from Hye-jin's perspective, it's like, dude, all he has is part-time jobs. He earns a minimum wage. I'm an educated dentist with a professional degree. I'm better. Everyone in town is like, he can do everything. He's brilliant. He aced every exam. He won a math award.

Every girl's had a crush on him. She'd be lucky to have him. it's like, you know, everyone's like, yeah, he's basically every, every girl in Gagen it was like, yeah, he was our first love, you know, like even in front of their husbands. like, so, and I, because sweet OU is like, you know what? Like maybe they're both great. 

Bubs: oh, I love that moment because, you know, I think we all know those people in our lives who, you know, when you come across, when they stand out, like, I think of my grandmother who was like, she was, she was raised in PODD, Kansas and married a Mexican and then spent the rest of her lives of me, life of Mexico.

She's like, she sees the best in everybody. And so she would totally be, oh, you and being like, but maybe they're both great. 

Tina: I have to say that there is I, this is so realistic. I can't tell you how many times I've been in conversations where somebody started dating somebody and people are like, is he good enough? Especially among like girlfriends, is this guy good enough for her? And like what, it's very interesting what people focus on, right.

That tells you a lot about them. 

Bubs: mm-hmm 

Tina: but you know, this is a community that, that does not trade in the investment world, right? The trade in the services that they all provide for one another. And so by that barometer, chief hog is like, he's literally the best he can do anything. Right. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: so I, I wanna talk, talk about, I wanna talk specifically about this.

So national university reveal and not only for what it, for what it does to the audience, but also how it changes Hye-jin's point of view. And I kind of wanna unpack like the, the elitism of it. Right. Because I think it's, I think it's interesting how intrigued tasian is by the fact that he's, that he went to the most prestigious university in the country.

Like obviously the first thing is it up ends everything that she thinks about him. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: Do you guys have any thoughts about this? Just to kick off? 

Bubs: it's like one of those things that like, I think we all do, we take these little shortcuts to understand people and make assumptions, which, I mean, it's never right. But I can understand her being like, wait . but again, it's like whether or not that was true. There's still so much more to him, regardless of whether he went to so nationally university

Tina: Yeah, I, you know, I, I saw the reason why I was asking this is because I saw a comment. you know, there's, there's still people that are still like discovering hometown cha cha cha, obviously for the first time. Right. And so whatever, like the algorithm does that, like they're like cease, see, you're obviously obsessed with hometown cha cha cha.

So, so please enjoy what everybody on Twitter has to say about it. However, the algorithm works, there was something that came across my timeline where somebody was being critical and they were saying like, isn't it a shame that the show felt like they had to establish that he went to this prestigious university. To, I guess in their words, cut against the fact that he, you know, works with his hands and earns minimum wage and isn't, you know, doesn't have a high powered job. And so, and I can understand that reaction to it. However, as we talked about in the first podcast, which oo is doing, she has modeled him after a specific historical figure, Henry David Thoreau, who went to Harvard and purposefully rejected what society expects.

And I think that is what the, the key is here. Chief Hong can do all of these things that, and the city expects and defines as success. And what he, as a character and Henry David Thoreau were challenging is saying, I don't think that's success. And therefore I reject it and I'm going to live by my own rules.

And unless he's capable of living by society's rules and doing all of the things that they're, that he's supposed to do and have this high power job and work in investment banking in the city or millions, you know, of one a year, like then there's not the same power to that message of rejecting sort of what society expects.

Does that make sense?

Beep: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think seeing it from a different perspective, it could be less about her. Opening up to the idea of like, Ooh, maybe he's more than I thought he was. I also can't kind of see the other side of like, Ooh, maybe I'm losing his, my edge over saying how much better I am. 

Tina: Yeah, because you know what she did, she judged him by how he dresses and his job and what he does just like her boyfriend did to her in college. And that is why she walks out of the end of the day from work andan is like, are you still feeling like, Oh, what are you so kind of like sad that you like are embarrassed, how wrong you were to talk about social positions.

when you find out that he went to the most prestigious university, and I don't think it's just that because when she actually sits down with him to a meal, the first thing that comes that of out of her mouth is to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong. And I don't think it's just about being factually wrong. I think it's cuz she turned around and did to him what her boyfriend did to her.

You know, she looked down at him.

Beep: Oh, a hundred percent.

Bubs: mm-hmm, the person who spoke that criticism. I think that it's fair criticism because there is a story out there where somebody does not have any kind of status like that in can. It can still prove that they're worthy of love and esteem, respect, and everything that they're still smart, whether or not they went to a fancy college, you know?

so I think that that is a worthy story to tell, but in this case, I agree with the, the way that the story is setting it up, that he's proven. That he could have had all of that. Like there's, he, he already started the process of having that life. So there's no question about like, well, I could have done that, you know, it's like, no, he did.

He did. And, and it's it's through living that life that he found something else 

and, and chose something else.

Tina: yeah, yeah. It's, it's that he attained that definition of success and yet left soul feeling like an utter failure and even questioning whether to continue living because there's other things that matter more 

Bubs: Mm-hmm 

Tina: let's, let's put a pin in this discussion because when we get to the scene where he does the math, I do, I do think there is something to. Not only partners having shared values, but intellectually stimulating one another and challenging one another that she ultimately delights in because he's brilliant. Right. And that's like fascinating and appealing to her because she's smart. And she's somebody who, you know, is not just like driven. I mean, she's, you know, a dentist is a profession where you have to be very smart and study hard and be like intellectually curious.

Right. 

Beep: Also the only boyfriend they actually showed her having was 100%. Not that he was not intellectual at all. He was just rich.

Tina: And just materialistic. Right. Nissan is often, even though she has to kind of work again is very good at giving advice and needs to learn how to figure out how to follow it in her own life, in her journey with her future boyfriend. what she says is love. Shouldn't be about weighing things. It's about what's in your heart and that's that piece of advice is something that Hye-jin is ultimately absolutely gonna follow.

She's literally gonna run him and say, I don't care about all the other stuff, this to help with it. This is how I feel. and her, you know, her friend also points out to her. Look, your approach of trying to screen men based on these. Preconceived notions of what will make you compatible. Hasn't worked out so well, has it which is like brutal coming from your friend, right.

And obviously hits home because she just like says nothing and walks outta there. So one of the things that this episode establishes both overtly in the, as among the townspeople Asan then explains to Hye-jin is that there are three mysteries of GA and shin is laying them out explicitly. And the first is why did Haung and Yuk get divorced? We'll get to that. This episode kind of explores that we'll get to the second one in, in a second. What I love the, the way the scene ends is that Nissan is like, when Hye-jin walks away, she's like, don't you wanna know the third secret. And the third secret is who won the lottery and that's Nissan's future husband So it's, it's like kind of club how they play with that. All right. So the number two mystery of Gagen is the biggest mystery of the entire structure of hometown cha. And that is what chief Hong was doing with those five years. BS. Talk to us about some of the things that we learn about chief Hong and like his childhood from this kind of clever Nissan narrating it and these flashbacks

Bubs: well, yeah, I mean, he, he very much embodies how we see him today in terms of like being this sparkly, VES, an amazing person in town as a child, that's who he was too. Right. Like he was, he was super, super smart. He always had the top grades he always worked really hard. he did freaking engineering.

Engineering's like. I went to an engineering school. I did not do engineering because it's hard. , it's really hard. So, I mean, he's amazing. That's what we know about him now.

Tina: Yeah. But then they get into and it's. So, I mean, I want you to like, think about the fact chief Hong is this, you know, every episode, there's a new tagline for him. The pride of they put up banners, he gets awards. He's the hero of goin last episode, right? Brave citizenship award twice. Nobody in the village knows what the hell happened to him and what he was doing for five years.

That's insane. Right? Like the, the level of walls up that these people that he has been around since he was a kid, right. There's that adorable flash back with the grandmothers with very different hairstyles and darker hair. Right. Remembering when he was a little kid and none of them know, and there's, there was a level of comedy to all of this, right.

That I think is so meta, because the thing is you have all of the people in the village gossiping about it, but it basically just reflects all of the wild speculation on social media as to like, what the hell, this story was like, what happened to him? Right. And the theories, the theories in that the villagers are talking about is like, maybe he was a spy.

Maybe he worked for an intelligence agency. He like was raising lions in Africa. He swam the Pacific, he climbed Mount Everest. Right. There's these hilarious, like almost out of crash landing on you, right. Where chief 

Bubs: That's what I was thinking of.

Tina: you know, 

Beep: Well, I got major cloy feels from that.

Tina: Yeah. And there's this comedy to it. Right. So like if chief, Hong always is like flipping his hair back, even if he's like in the forest with the, like, you know, like. Fake foli she's still gonna flip it back. 

Bubs: I that so much. 

Tina: so. 

Bubs: Wait, what, what do you guys think? What did you think when you were like, imagining all this? Were your guys' thoughts? Like as crazy, or did you have like 

Tina: oh,

my God, the like Twitter speculation, particularly when they covered, when you couldn't see the face of the man in the photograph, in the book, and all you saw was a woman holding a baby.

Bubs: oh,

Tina: mean, the fan speculation was, that he had lost a wife and a child. That's why you hear later on a child wailing in the dream that there had been some kind of accident that he caused some sort of like as an engineer, some sort of disaster where people died, right?

Like the speculation ran. There was a whole theory about which, which in part was correct that like he was involved with some sort of car accident. And that's why we up for so many episodes, we never saw him in a car. so there's all kinds of speculation, which is hilarious because it's like this meta point that this is what people do.

We're curious. And we want to know things and just like the villagers gossiping around like a table. That's what the audience is doing at home. And an episode, what is it like 13 chief Hong is gonna be like, dude, all of that is ridiculous. like, what do you mean? What do you mean? I'm a spy, right? Like the answer, the answer's actually much more straightforward and mundane and all the more tragic for it.

Right? Like, and two of the things that they say on rewatch. Are really kind of punching the guts because it's the hardware store owner. He was like, did he kill someone? Or maybe he was in a mental asylum and it's kind of played for laughs right. As, as outlandish things. But at the end of the day, he does feel like he's responsible for an attempted suicide and a death.

And he did have a quite acute, you know, emotional breakdown where he was suicidal. And so it's really fascinating to rewatch it and also think about how this conversation's gonna be revisited. They, he assembled almost in the same place once they know pieces of what happened when he gets punched in the face.

And all of a sudden it's kind of like, what matters is that? This like, they miss him and is he gonna be okay? 

Bubs: mm-hmm, one of those things that sometimes you learn in life is that you are always gonna be the harshest one on yourself. that other people, so, so like the village kind of taking this, obviously they're surprised when they find out what actually happened. but like you said, they accept him 

because they know him because he's more than one thing.

He's a lot of things like everybody, no, it, it's not black and white people are complicated. Things happen.

Tina: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting that I think I expected at least from the conventions of, let's say American TV. I, I expected that there would have need to have been some, reckoning with the people in the town where he has some conversations and like explains it. And what I think is really interesting and far more powerful is it doesn't, they're sitting here speculating about what happened.

They're gonna find out in, in, in the most dramatic way possible, right. He's gonna get punched in the face and called a coward in front of all of them. At the end of the day, they just, he's still a part of their community and everybody just moves on together and they are celebrating joyfully that he's happy and that he's okay.

And that he's getting married and he doesn't need to explain all of this stuff that they're wildly speculating. You know, like maybe there was some conversations that happened off screen, right. That like, you know, we can head cannon that happened but, but ultimately all of this stuff that they're wildly speculating about at the end of the day, doesn't matter because they care about him and he's part of their community. 

Bubs: Exactly.

Beep: he's been back and he's been active. I mean, they know who he is, so it doesn't matter what he's done. And also to make clear, even though it's a very murky situation, he didn't actually do anything.

Tina: Yeah. 

Yeah. I mean, that, that is what is, so, mundanely tragic about it, right? It's just a series of choices. And then the choices having, you know, on a much larger sense, right? We're kind of an interpersonal train wreck on with very small stakes right here about the morning after from a drunken kiss and all of the things that are pile up. Right.

But he made a series of choices of giving, letting the guy invest in the fund or not answering the card calls or not following up and things like that. And then other people made other choices and he gets blamed for them. 

Bubs: yeah,

Tina: And words hurt. Right? This is like casual gossip. There are other conversations that happen later in this show where the words make LA like lasting damage. 

Bubs: mm-hmm well, I think like, I really do feel as guilt because as somebody who is a horrible procrastinator, a lot of the times when I'm not dealing with something is because I'm, I'm trying to fix it in another way so that I can then face it. So with when the guy's calling him, you know, to ask about the stocks and everything, I get him not answering because I feel like that is what I would've done.

I'd be like, I will call him when I can figure out some way to deliver better news or that once I've figured out what we're gonna do, that that's when I'm gonna take the call with there's something I can do about it. I, and so I can totally see myself being in that position and like, how do you not feel immense guilt 

Tina: Yeah, 

Bubs: when the way that you went about it 

Tina: mm-hmm 

Bubs: was so clearly the wrong way.

Tina: well, right. And it's, it is sadly. I mean, 

Bubs: Not his fault, but

Tina: no, what I was wa and, and when I to be quite Frank, when I was watching the later episodes of the show, there was a suicide in my community, and everybody left behind asks themselves those fair questions. What, what could I have done? Could I have called them more?

Could I, what I, what this, that, that, and you second guess all of those things, right? That is so human in dealing your through grief now layer on top of that, the fact that. His Young's widow. It says to somebody who just almost took his own life, it should have been you who died or the man's wife, the, the security guard's wife is like, you're disgusting.

Right? And that family's whole narrative to avoid blaming the person who's unconscious is that it must be this hung Dew, SHEEX fall. It's his fault that that's why my father would've taken all these risks because it's this guy's fault. Right. So, yeah, it's like all of the guilt that people normally would take on to themselves onto themselves.

But then on top of that, people speaking out of grief and explicitly out loud blaming him, 

Bubs: mm-hmm 

Tina: All right. Beep that brings us to. The grandmothers in a field of flowers. 

Bubs: Hmm.

Beep: Listen, you know how I feel about game. I'm like ride or die. I love that. She I'm sure she has some sort of interest in this, but also not. I mean, she seems to be the most level hooded person about it. I love when she threatens the shop owner that she's going to staple his mouth shut so that she no longer has to hear what he's talking about. 

Tina: mm-hmm 

Beep: And you know, she's just not concerned as far as those five years, because she's more thankful. Okay. But we have him now, like he's here. We get to see him. He's part of my life. He does things for me. I do things for him. Like I, you know, she's not saying it outright, but like she loves this guy, 

you know, as, as her son, it's her grandson, we see all that stuff later, but she's just, she's more worried about the man he is than what may have happened before he came back.

Tina: Yeah. And I think that there's, there's a lot, it's a very, very quick conversation at the beginning, before we get into sort of the, photography of it all, which is quite emotional on rewatch, but so the grandmothers are also like, okay, so what's the deal GA, because he kept in touch with you more than anybody else.

Actually, we now know he was so busy and so. Entangled in this investment banking world, he had almost forgotten her. 

Bubs: Hmm.

Tina: So she actually wasn't in touch with him. Right. But, but, but when she says, why does it matter? He is here with us now it's sort of this really interesting grappling with how much the past should impact Lare because MEA is also gonna tell that to Hagen.

Like, why don't you stop worrying about what happened and focus on the present. And that's something that Haen is gonna tell chief Hong to do in life at the very end of the story, like stop worrying and, and G will too, like stop wearing out the past, focus on what you have now and just let yourself be happy.

so I think that's like a really interesting kind of like, everyone assumes that G Marie was more in touch, but we now know that she actually wasn't until the like life defining moment when she was, It's also really sort of, it's a beautiful scene of these like field of yellow flowers and, you know, very romanticist with a big R they're out in nature.

The women are comparing themselves to, to flowers. They're talking about when in life, do you stop to appreciate the flowers that they are flowers towards, you know, the end of blooming, right? Like comparing their lives now that we know why he's taking these photographs, how's that make you guys feel

Bubs: ugh, 

Beep: Pass

Bubs: my heart.

Tina: no, I'm not. 

Beep: it hurts my heart and you know it,

Bubs: he's just like, he really, spends so much time thinking about everybody else and what they need. The, he has it on such a micro level that he's taking pictures. 

Beep: and he is not getting paid. I know that's not normally something to think about, but in his case, like that's a huge deal. He's taking some of his free time and just doing this for them.

Tina: That's his love language. This is

what he did. Yeah. It's what he did for Haiti. In the last episode, too, he worked on his day off 

Bubs: acts of service. That's my favorite one bad and gifts. I'm not kidding. We're it's where, like my, the lowest, one of my tot poles.

Tina: Yeah. I mean, if we're gonna think about this in sort of the lovely circle, right? 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: The woman who stayed in touch with him, who reached out to him and is the reason why he is in her words here with them now is cataloging. What remains of her life, because he remembers that she liked the photographs at a wedding, and that she said, the only celebration I have left to throw for a community is my Memorial. 

And that, that's why he's taking these photographs. Like this picture of the three of them in the flower field will be, will be in a frame at game's Memorial. 

Beep: You shut your stupid face.

Bubs: I think also though, you know, the scene where, Gery shows Hein the video of her, showing those papers that, 

Tina: mm-hmm, 

Bubs: was like proof that her father fought and the Korean independence war. 

Tina: yes. 

Bubs: and so the reason she was able to go and talk about her dad and be memorialized in video was because Duick had signed it up.

So I almost feel like he's also memorializing her for himself so that he can always have a part of her. and I think that's sweet.

Beep: I'm not sure he realizes that's what he's doing it. Like, I agree with you. I'm not 

whatever, I'm not sure he realizes he's doing that yet, but once she's gone, he'll certainly be happy that he did.

Bubs: Yeah, well, it's kinda like someone who just went through like a lot of loss and awfulness, and who was always like kind of alone. I think it makes sense that like, whether he realizes it or not, he tries to make people more permanent in his life somehow. whether that's by making himself indispensable or by, making sure that it there as, as documented as possible, 

Beep: Sure. 

Bubs: a physical way.

Beep: But what is there to say about the fact that he's always behind the camera?

Tina: Hmm until the very end when he steps out in front of it with his 

Bubs: Oh, 

Beep: Yeah. That's, that's another way that he keeps people at arms length though. Like, oh, look at me. I'm at this party, but I'm the camera dude, like go over there.

Bubs: well, it also goes back to that, the photo of hesion in her family, right. That the grandfather took, but he was also behind the camera.

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, that is a really interesting, way to think about that. He is a spectator, right? He's not living his life. I mean, he he's able to enjoy some things in the present, like surfing. Right. But like when it comes to relationships, it's not until the very end when he has opened him up, opened himself up fully to Hye-jin that the story ends with him standing in front of the camera with 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Tina: Yeah, 

Bubs: where he stepped back into his life. Again. 

Tina: yeah.

Speaking of cameras. I think it's interesting given this debate that is the thread that runs through this show about class, about careers, about how people earn money and how much they earn that. Chief Hong is walking around with his camera after he sees the grandmothers and cataloging people who work with their hands. 

Bubs: Mm-hmm 

Tina: like the beauty of Gagen going hand in hand with people in the market, people who are fishermen laborers and finding beauty in that.

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: You know, that that is something that's consistent with his philosophy, right. That there is satisfaction and honor in earning money by working with your hands after coming from this catastrophic, these like catastrophic events from the investment world, which is the opposite of that.

It's playing with other people's money that they earned with their hands. 

So, all right. Enter director G 

Bubs: so spectacularly. I 

must say 

Beep: Yes. I love that he catches him like the same way that he caught.

Bubs: I love that they, yeah, like they use a romantic trope to kick off the, the love triangle. I thought that that's brilliant.

Tina: yeah. And he catches him by the camera. 

Bubs: You 

Tina: You

know? Yeah. And I mean, I know we've covered this a lot, you know, we've mentioned in past podcasts, but this is the second in the trilogy of people falling almost into the water and being saved. Right. And so this love triangle, that's going to end up becoming a. Triangle of friendship where everybody's friendships means something important to everybody and their arcs, right? 

Bubs: mm-hmm 

Tina: Like, you know, chief Hong is gonna turn to like director G is key. As we talked about in the last podcast to chief Hong facing his past in many ways it's both a security guard son and his cousin who is his Young's widow.

but also chief Hong is gonna save director G because he's gonna give him some really important advice, which is stop waiting to say something and go after the person you're in love with. Right. Like he sees things for him. The, that he's not able to like, discern about his own feelings. 

Beep: Right, because it appeared as though he learned that lesson when he went to Hain, but it's like, come on buddy. And I think he does ha I'm not saying he didn't care for her, but I think he was already in love with the writer. 

Tina: Well, 

Beep: you're still 

Tina: yes. Yeah. He's headed. You know, what I thought was so brilliant beep about that point, right? Because what chief honk says later on is look, you didn't lose your appetite and get depressed like this when Hazen turns you down. So what's up with you dude, right? Like you like her, right? You're more upset about your colleague leaving her job than you are your college crush turning you down.

But what I love in this episode is director G. On his own is always walking off in the wrong direction. right. He fall chief Hong tells him the directions and that he goes right instead of going left. And he tells him you're an optimist with a bad sense of direction. so chief Hong not only has to a point to him, basically as if pointing him, which way you should be going on this road and walk him there.

But he's gonna have to do that with director G and his love life later on in this show. but I also think it's great that like, if in the last episode we had, Juri and Hye-jin bonding over their mutual love of K-pop and this particular idol, they, they geek out about cameras and food. And just like J did not believe that Haen had met June chief Hong doesn't believe that director G knows this like famous food celebrity I really like, we talk a lot about sort of the romanticist lens of this show and the two men sitting on the top of the hill, looking out on the ocean. It's just Beau, first of all, it's just beautiful to like, to look at right that 

the 

Bubs: really is. Yeah.

Tina: there, you know, the show really takes the time with the cinematography and the direction to really let us, like, you know, it's just two characters sitting on the top of a hill , It's like something right out of like you, the romanticist poets, like on the like Moores in England, looking out on a hill.

But I think it's interesting what director G says it's okay to get lost or take the long route every now. And then do you guys have any thoughts about that 

Bubs: I think that it's funny that, that's so clear to him, to him, but like how that's a lesson that, Heian is still learning. Cause she kind of went on that journey. That's how she found there too. Right. 

Tina: Hm 

Bubs: and well, I think it's funny that do six's response is like, well, I can't wait till there's, self-driving cars for you.

he's like that, that to me was funny because for somebody who's always, so, you know, it, it sounds like something he'd be totally into, right. Like yeah, just follow the universe and see where it takes you . 

Tina: yeah. 

Bubs: but he was like, he was not all about it, which I thought was funny. I, I wasn't really sure why. 

Beep: I feel like in some ways, du she's life is based on a routine though, and I'm not sure he is in a place to go too far out of that. If that makes sense. Like it's different to play in the rain than it is to just randomly wander off into a new city.

Bubs: Mm-hmm no, I think that makes sense. Like it's, he's very controlled in his own way.

Beep: Right in order to, I mean, I think he has to be that way to keep himself together.

Bubs: Yeah.

Beep: outwardly obviously.

Bubs: Yeah. He can't enjoy life. Yeah, no, that's right. He can't enjoy life by just exploring and letting it take in where he wants to go or where he might not even know that he wants to go. He has to do these things to a tone for what he perceives. He did wrong in, in the, the world.

Tina: Yeah, I think it's an interesting piece of advice. When you think about what he says to Hye-jin at the end of the episode, sometimes life's gonna take, I mean, cuz it's essentially saying the same thing, right? Sometimes you're gonna get like director G ends up picking and GA because he got lost and then you just, and then he discovered a beautiful place and he's gonna end up setting his television show there and it's gonna change a lot of people's it's gonna be a catalyst for a lot of things, both in his life and other people's lives.

and essentially what chief Hong is saying the end of, and the episode is like sometimes when you bring an umbrella, it rain, right? Like, so, and you're still gonna get wet. So it's sort of this grappling with when the unexpected happens, how do you react? you know, and then the guys are just sitting there and then he's basically like I'm hungry. 

Bubs: I love that so much. I just really like that character. 

Tina: he's. 

Bubs: what I like most about it is because I really hate, when it's like the second lead. There's like, I don't, I, I don't like when there's like a ship war about the second lead and that it's confusing. And like, I don't like ambiguous and like, so I, I thought that this was very clear in the sense that like, you could really like him 

Tina: Yeah. 

Bubs: you still weren't distracted from the greater story and where the heart of the show lies, 

which is with Dusek and Hein

Tina: right, because it is like both the actual love triangle and jealousy is introduced late. It lasts for a very short run of episodes. And then he has far greater depth than meaning in the story than just being the second lead. Who's the love and like part of the love triangle. So yeah.

Now, I also thought it was really interesting.

It's and, and I looked at it as kind of meta this whole debate about fresh versus fish, something that you get right away and eat right away versus something that has to literally, you knowa chemical process ferment, something you have to wait for, which is, this is a, a really excellent, slow burn story.

and when he says the sick, hi, which is their ship name but is also, you know, is fermented. I just was like, oh, I see you. Chinon winking at the audience. Basically be patient we're about to go through a rough patch. all right. Talk to you about Nissan Absolutely. Throwing her friend under the bus and hiring the person that she knows everybody is gossiping about to be her sub at the school.

Beep: Nissan is so hardcore. Like she's I love that everything she does though, is in, is in Hye-jin's best interest. She's not, she's not manipulative. She's not trying to do something mean she's li you know, I think she's, she's just trying to get her, her ship to sale. Let's let's put these two together a little more and see what happens.

Tina: It's amazing how her repeated bouts of diarrhea helps so many chip sail in this episode. you know, because if. We wouldn't have gotten this adorable math off and playing on the beach in the rain so we should be very grateful to her irritable bowel syndrome or whatever is going on. 

Bubs: girl needs more fiber

Tina: So, okay. Anybody have any thoughts about how hard chief Hong goes on? Making fun of Haitien for saying that he liked her, he teases her so much about being like don't don't don't think I'm staying too close to you cuz I like 

Bubs: Oh, , I love it. His dance that he does for the children 

Tina: Oh my 

Bubs: to, of course him teasing her. I'm a big fan of bickering. And I thought that that was well done. and, and like I said before, it's like they needle each other. They, they like force each other, to get to that next little ledge that they need to get to, to get where they're going. 

Tina: I think it's like really interesting and defensive and over the top the way he's like, don't think don't think I'm oh, I'm standing too close to you. Don't don't think it's cause and she's like, dude, you're really teasing me a lot for like one little mistake and he's like, yep. And I plan to for a while, right? 

Bubs: yeah, no, I think it's, he can't help it, like it's, I, I think it bothers him that much, that he has to, like, he has to bring it up again. And he does that by joking, as we all do.

Beep: Well, and, you know, I always go back to this, but they haven't had, like, the two of them really haven't had that many or really any especially healthy relationships, like they're coming at each other in this weird, like middle school way 

of like, I am going to be mean to you because I love you. Come on. 

Tina: tease you and tease you. Right. And, and if the more I tease you about it, then maybe the Le then you won't list again, everything that actually is, is evidence about how I'm feeling. , 

Bubs: yeah, it is all a joke. Please think it's a joke. 

Tina: there's, 

Bubs: and don't break my heart.

Tina: there's so many great details in this whole hilarious, like dance sequence, because 

Bubs: wait, what's your favorite dance? dance.

Tina: Oh,

it's definitely the like very stiff hips with

where it seems like Kim son body can only move in. What, like, right. It's like his hip move, but the rest of, I can't even articulate. I'm just likes. 

Bubs: that's so true. I really like the, the, the fist to forehead, the, you know, little,

Beep: Yes. love that.

Tina: oh, my God. If I had learned about the importance of brushing my teeth as a child, this way, I think I would've had much better oral hygiene

Bubs: oh, Same.

Tina: as a child, 

Bubs: Same. 

Beep: I also love that he does not he's, you know, cuz you would think like he's good with people. He's good with kids. He can come in and help with us, but they actually go outta the way to say he's certified in recreation. like what, what does that even mean? That's

Bubs: mean, it's the best running joke of the show. All of his certifications.

Beep: Absolutely. It's 

Tina: And she's, and she's into it. 

Bubs: she is into it. She's like super into it,

Tina: and she's, and, and what I love, what I realized too, is that in this episode he knows the dance choreography and she's trying to keep up. And the next episode for the K-pop, she's the one, who's the seek grant. K-pop part of that group's army. Right. And she knows all the dance moves and he's trying to keep up. 

Bubs: but no, it's, it's like a really great point that they're starting to like back each other up, you know, it's like, okay, we're bickering. We're gonna bicker on the side when it's just us, we have this whole thing going. But what, you know, push comes to shove. When we're in front of a crowd, I got your back.

I'm gonna follow along. I'm gonna do my best. . 

Tina: yeah. 

Bubs: is what I'm here to do. I'm here to back you up.

Tina: And there's a lot of little like great details. Like the, when her hand, when he's hold, when they're holding the giant model of teeth, the way his face exhibits, internal screaming, when she touches his hand is so delicious. 

Bubs: no, the best part, the best part is, is the close up where you can't see their hands and then she goes, and then you vibrated it, like. And he looks at her, he looks at her. I'm like, was the, I think that was, I literally think that was

Tina: but then, then, then Hye-jin is the, the parents are gossiping about, and what I love is every single question they ask, the answer is eventually going to be yes. Did you kiss, do you like him? Are you in love? Are you getting married? All the answers are. Yes. 

Bubs: kids always know. They just always know

Beep: What I love about that is, is even, I'm sure they did hear it from their parents, but even if they didn't two grownups have come together to present something. So obviously they're,

that's just how kids are too.

Bubs: it it's so true. I remember being in like first grade and being like, is the principal like together with my teacher because they were so standing next to each other. just like banana stuff, that little kids.

Tina: Yeah, well, and they're like, okay. So, apparently she like spent the night at his house and now they're in school together. like what I mean? And then you've got, and you've got this very clever meta moment where Hain leans over to chief hall and is like looking at our other love triangle. And it's like, I sense a love triangle brewing here.

Meanwhile, he met director G in this episode, and director G is just around the corner about to kick their love triangle in a high gear at the end of the next episode. It's like this great meta moment. You know, obviously we've got this other love triangle going on simultaneously during this classroom, dental hygiene lesson, where you've got, JohE trying to deflect youngun's attentions while she wore the bracelet, the friendship bracelet that she shares with Haung knowing she would see her that day.

And then you've got Haung who has Dr. Like it breaks my heart the way she dressed up. 

Bubs: mm-hmm 

Tina: To feel pretier because she feels like, God, what if my husband he's like back with this old love, right? Like the way that she dresses up to try and look nice because of the insecurity she's feeling as it's been 15 years later and I'm a mom and everybody keeps talking about how pretty she, he is, right.

Like, oh, it kind of hurts my heart. 

Bubs: yeah, no, I, I actually had a hard time from her perspective. It, it was just like really crappy.

Tina: Yeah. And I think so one of the things that, Sheha UN as a writer, which we talked about with toothaches in the past is she is able to talk about, she's able to use terminology and dental problems as metaphors for life So what we have is Haung is clenching her teeth and has all of this inner turmoil.

Right. And all of that teeth clenching and grinding her teeth at night has now caused a pain in her face that that is making like, makes her even wonder if she has a toothache, but her pain. What Hain says is it is important to find out where the pain is coming from. 

Bubs: Hmm.

Tina: Do you guys have any thoughts about how that explains what's going on with many characters in this story? 

Bubs: I mean, I think it especially speaks to her love triangle because I mean, there's so many misdirections and we can talk about what we know is that, her angst is about her husband looking elsewhere, but that's not really the that's not actually what will be of issue I guess is what I think of.

Tina: yeah. I mean, she's worried about she's, she's looking at her husband with ch her ex-husband with Choi. She's worried that her, you know, that he likes her, that something's gonna happen with that. Right. She's feeling old and unattractive and frumpy, right? 

Like very common middle aged woman, mom moment. and there's not like the misplaced pain is that JohE is actually in love with her. Right. And, and like, same with like Haan and chief Hong. They have this constant debate, you know, when Haan is like, I need an input and an output, your lifestyle doesn't make sense. Right. It. What she needs to know is the source of the pain. And once she knows it, all of a sudden they're able to really find a balance, right.

Because she, what, what she can't understand is, and what he refuses to explain is the why, like, why did you start living this way when you did? Right. and I also think like, if, if I, you know, and this may be a little bit of a stretch, but if we're talking about misplaced pain, both his friend's widow and the security guard's wife take their pain and project it on to DUI that it's all his fault.

And that also causes like a lot of damage. So I think it's a really interesting idea about misplaced pain moving. You know, you think it's here, but it's actually, you think it's your tooth, but it's actually be like going on in your face. And it's a muscular thing and not a problem with your tooth and how that is kind of like a metaphor for what's going on with a lot of people. 

Bubs: I mean, you can almost draw that back to the first scene in the village where she, she sees Burra crying and she's like, oh my God, you're too, because she she's holding the tooth sobbing. And so she goes to her mouth, like inspect it, but it it's really her friend who actually endured the tooth loss. but it's funny that pain isn't like the expression of, of the grief and the pain is not always what you expect or whom you expect from

Tina: Yeah. Or also this idea of having this turmoil inside grinding your teeth and it, and it starts to cause a spasm in your face. And that makes me think of when do chic is drunk and he's crying and says to him, you know, that can cause facial paralysis, right. And this whole idea of a mask that you wear that because of everything that you're holding in.

Right. And how that is like paralyzing right. And like a, a metaphorical way. it's just really fascinating. All of, I never knew that like dental problems could be such wonderful metaphors for life. All right. Talk to me about the diarrhea scene. 

Bubs: I mean, you know, it's a funny thing again, that I I've seen it. A few KRAS you know, poops are off the table in terms of like a romantic spark igniting a romantic spark, because, and it's like such a clever thing. It's like, you know, if somebody can see you, at your worst at your most like, vulnerable 

Tina: Mm-hmm 

Bubs: still see the person you are in five I'm that worthy and want to know more, I mean, if that's not love, I don't know what if

Tina: oh my God. When, when he's like, why are you at the, 

Bubs: like, if there may as well be like, you know, one of those like target loud speakers, hello, diarrhea medication is here.

Tina: my God. I, you know, you ands the type of dude that runs out after her. Like, you know, 

Bubs: get the evil out, let the evil come out. that was my favorite part. The advice like the very practical, like just don't stop it. Just let, just let it go out. 

Drink a lot of water. it. Like how can a scene about diarrhea be so sweet.

Tina: Look you Cho is like, honestly, I don't know if there's a dude in real life who would do that. he's, he's a good ag man. 

Bubs: yeah, he really is.

Tina: and again, you know, what's funny is that they then have this conversation about like, what are you interested in? He's basically like, oh, I love historical K drama. Right. And I love these like meek mild, right.

Where nobody really says their feelings and it's all subtext. And me, someone's like watching it from her couch and is. like, dude, there's no way you're gonna like me then. Right. But again, like chief, Hong and Hain, those are surface differences is, you know, they have a lot of things in common that are a lot more important.

that will kind of go on the journey with them about. Are we ready? Are we ready to go to meal number two, which I like to call Mac date? 

Bubs: Yeah, because earlier you, we talked about how he is, calculating, but the real calculator is too.

Tina: he sure got her to buy him a meal after all. Didn't he. So, but his face, when she drives like miles out of town, 

to, he's just like, Ugh, do we really have to go this far? Like, are you that embarrassed to be with me? You know, like, all right. But let's talk about when she sits down and it is something that chief Hong will mark to her father. She immediately says, I'm sorry, was wrong. 

Bubs: mm-hmm 

Tina: That takes not, everybody's willing to be that upfront about making mistakes. It's one of the things I love about Hye-jin. And he basically like, okay, you don't have to apologize for your opinion, but, and again, I don't think she just means I was factually wrong. Right. Talk to me about when she asks him to do the math problems.

Bubs: I think he was excited to do math for her. I really do.

Beep: Me too. Yeah. He was like, watch me. I have certification in this too.

Tina: and they're playing, they're playing that, that like Spanish guitar. I am chief long. These. 

Bubs: oh, I can just see his, like the, you know, the little gears turning in his head. He's like, yes, this is how I'm gonna get her. Mm.

Tina: Yeah. And when the way he's just like, yeah, bring it. I'll do another one and he's calling her. He is like, you're so childish. Like, this is so ridiculous, but he's clear the way they both, he loves that he is showing off for her and she is so into it. It is so amazed. It is like a turn on to watch him do math 

and 

Bubs: like he

Tina: he is 

Bubs: no that like, he's like, oh my God, her love language is math. This is easy for me.

Tina: Yeah. And then, 

Beep: Okay, but how much do you love that? They just get chastised by the.

Bubs: yeah's like, well, okay. 

Tina: yeah. And you know, what I love about this is that, you know, obviously we're gonna have a lot of dialogue to unpack in a minute, but this scene and the beach scene. Those are moments of real connection where they're just having a blast with each other. Right. It's like real emotional. Like it's just what they're feeling.

And that is, they really enjoy being around each other and right. And they're just like in their own world and drawing, like the waitress says like kids all of over a tablecloth , you know what I mean? Like doing math problems. Right. but then, then it, like, then the dialogue turn, then the scene takes a turn.

He's basically like, are you satisfied now? And she's basically like, no, I'm more confounded than ever. Because then how does this make sense with how you live your life and what she is live an honest life reap what you Talk to me about that. 

Bubs: I mean, I think it's, she's had this thing like instilled in her from her sole lifestyle that it's like, equating like moral correctness with the kind of hard work that results in status currency, moving up the, it's a, you know, she has that very narrow understanding of success, but not only of success, but of what is your duty as a citizen.

and so, yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't understand that that's not actually a definition of morality. You know, it, it has no, it, it's not related to it at all.

Tina: Yeah, well, and there's so many layers to it, right? Because there's, he's not living by society's rules. Right. He went to the most prestigious university in the country and he's living, he's working odd jobs and earning minimum wage. So I think, I don't think that that's an UN, I think that that's a pretty realistic question.

People would add. I mean, people ask me like, what are you gonna do with your law degree? And I'm like, I, I don't really wanna use it. Is that okay? You know, like, I mean, there is, that is something that is a conversation. This, that whole time, when I was watching the scene, I was like, do you know how many times in real life people have asked me that, like, just because you earn something and you may decide that it doesn't make you happy, but that doesn't it with what like society expects, 

Beep: No, the whole idea of what we are gonna do when we grow up, like assumes that it's always gonna be the same thing till we die. 

Bubs: Yeah. Is that kinda shitty that you have to decide when you're so young and you don't know anything?

Beep: Yeah. It's, it's not great.

Tina: but also the assumption that you should, why would you not be doing the thing that would earn the most amount of money 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: that is very much a part of living in any capitalist country, right. So, but then there's, there's some interesting, deeper layers to it, right? He actually is living his life because he thinks he's reaping what he sewed.

He thinks he made a lot of mistakes. He gave all of his money away to the person that he thinks was harmed because of his mistakes. And now he refuses basically to like earn a profit. And he, when she says like, live an honest life, he actually, isn't honest with many of the people in his life, including her up until the very end about why he's doing that.

So there's just a lot of like interesting layers to it. But I think he is basically in this conversation, like she's representing convention and, and a lot of what unfolds later following all the way through why he like grabs her hand is like, he's challenging that like chief, Hong as a character is challenging convention, particularly in a capitalist society.

And, and I think this is one of their, one of many realist with a big R and romanticist with a big R debates, because then what he says is if your definition of output is money and success, I must look like an awfully inefficient individual money and success. Aren't the only things in life. Beep any thoughts about that? 

Beep: I'm so glad that's true. just meaning. That is wrong. Cause I feel like right now I look like an awfully inefficient individual I mean, it's, it's coming from such a place of pain for him. It's also interesting. And you had mentioned this earlier. It's not like he doesn't know those things. He's had those and he's chosen a different way.

And so I think all of this, this whole conversation, everything going around and round at this meal just leads her to constantly think as she's putting in her little box of you reap what you sew, what has he sewn that this is what it looks like. You know, I think she connects everything with, okay, because she's so hard working and she earned her way through and she did all that, that she's making that one-on-one comparison to so many other people, you know, what did he do?

What steps did he take that this is what it looks like. Especially when she finds out, he came from, you know, sole university and he's so super smart. It's like, wait, this, he doesn't have to be where he is. It's not like he is incapable. He, he chose this and that makes even less sense to her.

Tina: yeah, because he's not explaining the reason. Like, so when she says there's an input, there's an output. There's something missing here. Like she's right. you know, like when he did go to so national university, he did get swept up in the expected course of things and opt, instead of being an engineer, went to investment banking as very, very smart people to go to prestigious universities, end up being funneled into the professions that earn a ton of money.

Right? Like he did get swept up all in all of that. He had all of that. He had all of that money. He had all of that success and he had all of that and he found out he went off a cliff and then of that mattered because horrible things still happened. Right. And he gave all of his money away to try and fix it as best as he could.

But there's some things that money can't fix or bring back, you know? So like when he's talking about those things, aren't everything in life it's coming from like a deep. Personal experience with how much that's true. Now the realist would point out. No, of course it didn't fix the father's like health, but All that money did pay for better care and paid off his son's student loans so that he can have the career that he has in television. right.

So like, you know, there's a romantic assistant realist back and forth in this show where I feel like the, the, the char the show kind of arrives at like a happy medium and isn't fully take one side or the other, if that makes sense. 

Bubs: Well, I think it's like acknowledging that, the world that he comes from exists and operates very much like that, but that isn't the end all be all. So it's almost like when they come down to the seaside, they're like frosting into a different world. that is equally real. And so it's kind of like it's saying like, yeah, money is important.

Status is important, but it's not everything and not everywhere is that equated to, you know, success in terms of the happy life and everything else that entails

Tina: yeah, and it's also really highlighting, you know, we focus a lot, understandably because it is the pervading mystery on chief homes journey that hazan's journey is, is. Untangling what satisfies her and her self worth and her career and be, and becoming this important member of the community and earning money, like kind of honorably from her hard work and helping people and untangling that from what do your friends in the city think about what you're doing and what are their expectations?

Because she's gonna get tested at the end of the show because they're going get the, the show's going the narrative will give her an opportunity to go back and take that prestigious job of a professorship and soul. And she's gonna come to the decision to turn it down. And so this conversation is sort of previewing the journey that Hazen has to go on on like, it's not all about success and money, because if she ultimately thought that it was, she would've returned to soul at the end of the show, 

Bubs: Yeah. And I think that's partially why she's so curious about why he leads the light, if he does having gone to such a prestigious university, because it's like what she learned, you know, from what we see with her, that flashback with her ex-boyfriend is she was told, there was only one way to go about things and it, it crushed her, but she prevailed and she was able to meet the demands of this world that put such harsh demands on her.

You know, she did it. And now she's seeing that maybe that was not the only way. Like, does he know something that I don't know? Like, like, am I wrong in this little reality that I live in? Like, is, is there someone else that I can be that's I don't know. You know, it's like, 

Tina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Well, 

Bubs: more, there might be

Beep: Well, and isn't that just a message to us because that's more our world than his.

Bubs: yeah.

Beep: I mean, that's what it's saying. You know, we, this is so Hye-jin's arguments are so in line with our world

Tina: Mm-hmm

Beep: that I feel like the whole message is not only to get her to think about it, but she's the audience inserted in that way of.

Hey guys, like maybe this isn't the best way to go about it or not the only way, least 

Tina: Right. It's kind of like sometimes, at different points in the story, it's, you know, the writer, it seems like oo is speaking to the audience through a character. And in this first half it's chief Hong kind of doing the teaching and Haan is taking it in. And in the second half, it's Haan doing the teaching on being emotionally vulnerable and letting yourself feel things about grief.

And then it feels like Sheha UN is talking to the audience through Hagen. So what he says is happiness, self contentment, love, big pause, uh, uh, uh, change the subject life isn't life in a mathematical equation. It doesn't have a clear answer. There's no quote unquote right. Answer either. You're given a problem.

It's up to you to solve it. Thoughts on that? 

Beep: I think that's it's about choice is when we, we discuss that a lot. But you have options in front of you now. I mean, I believe in right and wrong as far as like moral choices, but yeah, there's, there are plenty of things that you come across where it's just choice. There's nothing inherently better or worse about it.

It's just which road do you wanna go down?

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Tina: Yeah, it also just looking at who the model for chief Hong is, it's also something that like truly Henry David Thoreau would say, like the transcend analyst believe that your own individual moral compass is more important than what society says. And like, he lived that out by like acts of civil disobedience and writing about civil disobedience, which would later like refusing to pay a poll tax, which would later inspire like GanDu-sik and MLK.

And he was talking about just because society says something's right. And you don't, you need to into your own individual conscience. And if you think something isn't right, like it's up to you to you are the standard of your, of, of like you are your own moral compass. And so I think there's like that really interesting kind of historical layer to it.

That is the model for this character that, that the Shinoa UN is playing with. But I think that this is also like just on like a character level, what both of them have to deal with. Each of them have a different problem. Hye-jin has to figure out what she's gonna do with her career and what is important to her and her lifestyle, which she is going to very much recalibrate what's important to her and her, her, and the way she wants to live her life.

By the end of the story, chief, hog's gonna have to grapple with. How am I gonna open up to somebody to be in a relationship emotionally and talk about all of the things that are in the past, like, and it's up to each of them, how they're gonna solve it. 

Bubs: Mm-hmm absolutely.

Beep: It's another way. He's indirectly giving advice that he's going to have to take.

Tina: Yes. Well, I think what's very interesting is both this scene and the walking in the rain, sometimes you have to, to Bri umbrella are both not only coming from his life experience, but also what they are both pieces of advice that he's gonna have to follow himself. . And as we talked about at the beginning, it's not always easy to follow your own advice.

tell me about how we have the, the flip side. Now she's gonna try and clean the sauce off of his lips. Now we know why he's freaking out 

Bubs: wait because they kissed,

Tina: because the, the camera angle now, now that you have, we have seen the flashback, the camera angle shows her face leaning in the, that it did for the kiss 

Bubs: oh my God. 

Tina: and he's like, don't do that. OK. Let's get the bill. Let's go. 

Bubs: oh my God.

Tina: okay. They walk out, it's raining. They. He has the umbrella. It is very important tracing in this drama who has the umbrella and who is standing under the umbrella with who at what point. But right now the umbrella is in chief Hong's hand. Tell me what, what you think is going on when sh when she's like, let's here, I'll drive you home.

And he grabs her hand and runs. 

Bubs: oh, I think it's like, he knows that if he, he, like, I think it's a thought that crossed his mind and he knows if he spends one more second thinking about it, he won't do it. so he does it. He just does it. and it's like what you were saying before. It's that little moment of freedom where he thinks he can be somebody else and he's too taking it for that, that little moment.

Tina: Yeah, it's impulse. It's like, it's like right before the laundry scene, when she's gonna walk away and he grabs a strap of her purse. It it's like, it's just this like, reflex, because it's like what he's feeling. And it's like these, these moments, every time they inch toward intimacy, it's, you know what shin says is it's courage.

It's like he's acting on this impulse before his head gets in the way. 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Beep: It's them being, magnets.

Bubs: and I think it's like, weather does that to people sometimes where it's like, you know how, like you had a bad day, you're like, I can eat this candy bar and it's like, it's raining. Well, I cannot go to work today. , you know, it's like the, this little like, excuse that you give yourself that it's like, oh, it's it's one of those day I can do this.

so I feel like it would not have happened without the rain. 

Tina: I also think on some level, there is, there is a deeper urgent see to this conversation. I, I mean, I think chief Hong, as he does, is willing to articulate and debate with anybody the merits of his lifestyle. 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Tina: but there is an urgency to convincing her on some level, right? Because shin, how UN said that we're free to interpret and we can conclude that at some point, given all of the things that he has given into the kiss and tried to help her and all of the things that, that at some level he's already in love with her and somewhere in the back of his mind, Is This earlier conversation where basically she's like, well, according to my social position and your social position, we don't get, we don't get together.

So if he doesn't shake this conformity, this adhering to convention about the way life is supposed to work and what you're supposed to do, according to the way society expects things, then they're never like, they're not gonna get together 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Beep: This is the first time he's had stakes when trying to convince somebody,

Tina: Yeah, yeah. And this whole exercise is trying to convince her to take risks and shake off this conformity to the rules.

And, and what is more symbolic of that than instead of staying under the safety of your umbrella to run out in the middle of a rainstorm? 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Beep: this is a total aside, and I don't know if you've ever done that, but it is extremely therapeutic. If you have nothing to do sometime, and it's raining, just walk out there and stand in it and feel it. And it's amazing.

Tina: Yeah. Swimming in the rain, swimming in the ocean, obviously when isn't lightning 

Bubs: Mm-hmm.

Tina: but, but swimming in the ocean, and this is also I think beep I'm so glad you said that because I think that there's something that's very, and again, I'm gonna be a geek about this. Romantic assists with a big R because this is all about feeling this isn't logical, right? Why are you running in the rain when you have a perfectly good umbrella and a car right there, and you're gonna get soaking wet.

There's nothing about, this is logical. It's about feeling. And like, I remember as a kid being in the ocean with my grandmother and it would start to rain and you just feel like your senses are alive in, in a way that like, you know, is be therapeutic is like a great word. Right. You just feel alive in the moment. I don't know if it's because of the elements or it's something that you're not supposed to do 

Bubs: I think it's, cause you're not supposed to do it. I, I really think it's like the freedom and then like, it's like, you're not supposed to do it, but you're doing it. And you know, it's not that bad. It's actually kind of fun. It's actually like, I remember I did the summer program when I was in high school in Rhode Island, Providence, Rhode Island.

And it was the, it was in the summer, like I just said. and it would rain almost every afternoon and like big downpours. and it was so fun to run through it. And there was this hill where we'd like roll down the hill and we'd all just be like, soaking. We like, I don't know what it was about it. Like, yeah, you're not supposed to do it, but.

Tina: Yeah. And it's spontaneous. It's, it's spontaneous. Not something you planned, right? Haen is a big planner, right? This is, this is completely spontaneous. And It's

absolutely about being in the moment because, you know, chances are 20 minutes from now. You're gonna regret at that your clothes are soaking wet and your, purse is soaking wet and your phone's in your purse 

and all 

Bubs: your, your, socks are doing that.

Beep: Oh, the squelch

Tina: the, yeah. So all, all of it is about being in a moment and not worrying about what's gonna come next before we dig into what he says. Just tell me your thoughts about the visuals of this scene. 

Bubs: I mean, it's gorgeous.

Beep: they're like kids.

Tina: Yeah. 

Bubs: love the slow motion.

Tina: I love how she pushes his ass down in the ocean. Every time they do this, he's like splash, splash, and she's just like, always, boom, you're going down. It happens the same way in the engagement thing. 

Bubs: and he like, oh, so this is how it's gonna be later.

Tina: I, and it's also, it is so beautiful. It looks like it's it's and I don't know what they captured, like if, or what is, you know, if the sky was really pink or whatever, but like, it's, it's like this pink sky that's like in a storm, you've got the pink of her dress. You have the rain, everything about the way it stage and the cinematography.

It's beautiful. And like the closing image, all of it under the umbrella is one of the like iconic images from the show. It's it looks like a painting. it's just really beautiful. And I don't, you know, we've talked before important emotional moments in this show happen outside in nature. I feel like when I was watching this, that I was like, especially on rewatch after we've talked about all of, sort of the romanticist ideas and themes that like.

Mr. Keating from dead poet society would ju if he were at the window, watching them, he would be so happy. like, 

Bubs: that's the movie, him just watching that and walking away silently. 

Tina: cause this is like, if you watched dead poet society, Mr. Keating is like the, the chief Hong in this moment, you know, he's like run around with your shirts off and paint your faces and scream, romantic poetry into the elements. You know, like there's something that is so classically, like whether it's like Lord Byron and being out in the rain, right.

There's just something that is like, or like Jane air hearing, going out in the MOS, in the rain and hearing the voice of the person she loves. And like, nature's talking to her, there's like a whole tradition, right? Of like interacting with nature this way. And they're like playing with all of this imagery, but it's not a coincidence that every really important emotional connection that happens.

And this is one of them between these two characters. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Beep: I love that he's also questioning in small ways as he's trying to prove to her, you know, or, or at least get her to realize there are more ways than going about it. There's not necessarily a right or wrong in every situation. And he's utilizing these things that where societally we've agreed, like, yeah, you don't do that.

And he's going, but why not?

Tina: Mm-hmm . So to that end, what does Heian say about this? I feel damp and uncomfortable. I'll get a cold. Any thoughts about that? And that sort of life view 

Bubs: I think it's saying that, like, she still assumes that to take liberties with life and run in the reign. There's a consequence that it's, it's not what she's supposed to do and she's gonna have to eventually pay for that.

Tina: mm-hmm Yeah. it goes with that closed fist imagery of their conversation.

Beep: Yeah. And it's also, the moment is wearing off. She was in the present and now that's the past. And now oops. Like we have to deal with it.

Tina: Yeah. I also think about how, when she was a child onto the beach, her mother was like, don't run, you know, her mother who was sick. It's about managing risk. Right? All of her lists, all of her clothes as armor. When she says I'm somebody who plans for 99 years, you make plans. To manage risk, to control things. it.

is the opposite of running in the rain and living in the moment. 

Bubs: mm-hmm

Tina: Beep read to us what chief Hong says in response. 

Beep: He says you're bound to meet unexpected situations in life. Even if you use an umbrella, you'll end up getting drenched, just put your hands up and welcome the reign. 

Tina: Hmm. First let's unpack everything that we now know is behind those words for him 

Beep: I mean, I think unexpected situations could not express what he went through there. I mean, there are no words to express that any better, the trauma that gone through 

Tina: yeah, 

Beep: it was not prepared for that. And yet there's no way to prepared for that.

Tina: no. And he followed the rules, right? He went to university, he got, he worked really hard. He won the scholarship. He followed his older friends lead. Right. He took the, you know, the, the high powered high earning investment banking job. He worked really, really hard, so hard that everybody lost touch with him from where he was from.

Right. Like this beloved family now, he lost touch with, he did everything that he's supposed to do. Right. and then we think back to that conversation he had in episode two, his life went off a cliff, even though he did everything that. he was supposed to 

Beep: Right. And then in the short term, she's, she's going back to this and you go back to that line, you know, of you reap what you sew. These are things that, that we know, in common language, but he did so, and he sewed well. And in the short term, he reaped not what he sewed. So there's a lot of confusion there.

Tina: Yeah. And he's, I think he's trying to like, I mean, I think as you said, there's a, there's a deeper emotional stakes to this because if he doesn't shake her from this convention, nothing's ever gonna happen between them. And I'm not saying that that that's explicitly what he's thinking about, but I do think it's why he argues so passionately to her, but he also has really hard earned wisdom.

And he's trying to not with out opening up about it. He's trying to be like, look, you can do everything that you're supposed to, and you can have that umbrella in your bag ready for the rain. And sometimes the rain goes sideways and you're gonna get drenched anyway. So then what 

Beep: I think he's trying to help her to not necessarily prepare for, but to do more of what she wants, because Hey, maybe that cliff is coming no matter what.

Bubs: mm-hmm and also, I think he's also like trying to soothe himself in a way that like she's, you know, because if, if she's completely right then he's worthless kind of that he, he got what he deserved. That's, that's what it'll always be. and so he has to believe that there's hope beyond that, even if he's like not really connecting that.

Beep: I also think he believes in many ways that his, all those things are what led to, and even perhaps caused what happened. And he doesn't wanna see that for her, by her assuming that they're the adult all.

Bubs: Oh, good point. 

Tina: All right. So they return to this common thread between them about who's running a fever. 

Bubs: the fevers in their pants. 

Tina: heap all right. Wow. Okay. He puts his hand on her forehead. The direction in the editing uses the thing that they do with Haan or the audience squarely in her point of view, because it closes up on her eyes and we get the flash of what she is remembering what is triggered by his hand on her face. Again, that she kiss him. All right. The journey, there are two faces go on from him being like her, looking at him, expectedly and kind of hopefully, and him looking at her with like affection and then he closes down and he, and she, so chief, Hong, are you sure? Nothing happened that night and he's like, no, 

Beep: Yeah. And now 

Tina: happened. 

Beep: a test.

Tina: It is, it's a test. So, so he gets another shot. Like he just ran, he just ran in the rain with her. Right. He just felt all of these things. He has another 

Beep: It's kind of oddly enough, it's raining. So that's the opposite, but it is kind of the cold light of day after everything that they've been through. He's kind of been put back into that position of like, I don't deserve any of this, plus he doesn't know how she she's gonna react. 

Tina: Mm-hmm 

Beep: he admits to it, she might be like, wow, that was the hugest stake ever.

I can't believe that, you know, I mean, he's been getting hit pretty bad.

Bubs: Yeah. I, I think it's just like, I mean, running in the rain is one thing, saying that yes, actually something did happen is opening up a whole different kind of chaos can't predict, and it doesn't feel safe the way that running in the rain does. like he allows himself some liberties, 

Tina: Mm-hmm 

Bubs: but not ones that have any lasting impact on his life.

Beep: Yeah. At least when he was running in the rain, he actually had the umbrella a backup plan. He's got nothing here. He's he's diving 

Tina: yeah, yeah. I mean, grabbing her hand and running in the rain. That's his heart, right? That's that's what he's feeling. And he just runs with it. This is his head rules over his heart. And I wanna go back to another excerpt from that interview with S UN, she says he reads the poem, the gatekeeper to Hye-jin and pauses that quote.

That's why it's my job to deny my love and quote, it was his heart that he could neither confess nor deny his love. So there is like movement here. He's denying it. And he's like, no, it didn't happen. Nothing happened. And he's shutting it down and it's like gonna open up a whole other can of worms has now imagine you're her. And you remember it happened and you went on that limb and you kissed the guy and he kissed you back. And then he pretends that it didn't happen. 

Bubs: now she knows how he felt.

Tina: Yeah, except this is intentional, right? He, she knows that he's full of it. She later says to me, so, he denied it happening, but I could tell that he, that, that wasn't true. So she knows he's full of it. And you know, the episode ends with the two of them under the umbrella together. But as soon as it opens to the next episode, she walks away and he's left alone in the rain under an umbrella.

Right. He's trying to manage the risk. He's under the umbrella, 

Bubs: mm-hmm alone 

again.

Tina: naturally. it's really fascinating to watch how he struggles with intimacy throughout this whole episode. This like stop and start. No, like leans towards her, pulls back. Anytime that she's gonna hold him accountable for it, with words pulls back. 

Beep: So that brings us to the epilogue. Shinhan UN is a master of epilogues if I may say so it always brings something new into the story where you're like, wait, what, what did I just watch? You know, it kind of bring things together or opens up something new where it it's a different kind of mystery for you.

And so now we see him and of course we know he's been going to soul to go to therapy. That's what he did when they went to soul earlier in the what was the episode three, I think. And so he's still doing that. The therapist asks if he's still having the same dream and he responds that he is now we see him have this dream. Which is not great. He's running everywhere in the darkness. And is all of a sudden, you know, grabbed from behind by a bloody hand, I think that adds a lot of credence to some of the ideas about death and murder or different things that may have happened. And it's all just kind of like, whoa, who is that?

Why are they bleeding? Like what what's going on? But he clearly has had a massive trauma. And then that wraps back around to what you were saying before CE he wakes up from that nightmare, but he goes back to sleep because she's there.

Bubs: I love it so much.

Beep: it's so real too. It's so real to have another person there grounding you when something like that happens versus just waking up and being like, it's either just dark or you're kind of confused, whatever, but he looks over and it's like, no, there's a solid, real individual who, whether I want to admit it or not, I trust. So I'm safe

Bubs: mm-hmm I'm not 

Beep: just gonna lay back down.

Tina: yeah, he's not alone. 

Bubs: And I, I like, you know, the middle of the night when you wake up, I don't know if this happens to you guys. It's like the anxieties that I feel during the day are like 10,000 times more impactful at nighttime . If I wake up in the middle of night, I think it has to do something with the, the brain chemistry of when you are like waking from sleep.

but it, I can imagine like waking up like that, and how different it would be to kind of like have that like reality touchstone that the world is not falling apart actually. that person's sleeping. Everything's fine. I mean, it's such a beautiful scene 

and just kind of like a peak a as to like what they will mean to each other.

Tina: Yeah. And there's so much really powerful symbolism. So he's in therapy, right? And after he says he has the nightmare, there's this darkness that creeps from the edges of the green until onto him, until it blacks out, 

Bubs: Mm-hmm

Tina: then he's alone in the darkness. Now we know that this now that this recurring nightmare is him having to face himself asking, do you deserve to be happy?

That's like the recurring nightmare that he has. And when he wakes up there is. Pointedly sunlight on his face. And it's the same light and dark imagery they play with at the beginning of, I think it's episode 12 when they're together. And there's this dream sequence where he's playing with her in the yard and the water and the watermelon and it's so like gazy sunlight.

And then he closes his eyes. He wakes up and he's in the darkness. And so it's using this sort of like light and dark to kind of represent what is going on inside of him, which shin UN had said in the interview, we read at the top of the podcast, she has to use these because, because his trauma is the mystery.

She has to use these epilogues to reveal to us some of what he is going through. Even if we don't know the cause. And I think it's really important because he's so sometimes emotionally evasive with Hagen that if the audience didn't have that empathy, that there's, there's something really hard going on.

Even if we don't fully understand what it is then, like, I think it's really important for the story, the way it unfolds that we empathize with him. Otherwise we'd be like, why the hell did you just like tell her that that didn't happen? Do 

Beep: Yeah, otherwise he just looks wishy-washy in his actions and his words, like what he's been doing. 

Throughout the episode, if we didn't get those glimpses into his psyche and his past and what, whatever little pieces we get, he wouldn't be a sympathetic.

Tina: Yeah. And I think, you know, being alone in the darkness always reminds me of, the myth of Orpheus and U racy, right. It it's when you're alone in the dark, that's when doubt creeps in. 

Bubs: mm-hmm 

Tina: And there's a lot about the way they show him constantly in his nightmare alone in the darkness.

And he only has, when he turns around it's it's himself expressing doubt, why do you deserve this? but then, you know, when he wakes up to somebody next to him, it's also really careful how they, stage things right at this point, they're next to each other, but they're far apart he's facing towards her.

She's facing away and they start of start playing with, the next time they fall asleep, right? In the same room they're gonna be facing, like, they're always playing with like who's facing who who's physically getting closer, or obviously to like the last they are asleep, very close together facing one another in the sunlight of mourn.

So they're playing with like a lot of this imagery, but I think a lot of it is like waking up from a nightmare that is all of your past trauma to finding solace in the person next to you kind of goes back to the main quote from Thoreau that S UN put in her script book. The only remedy for love is to love more. I know. Bobs. This was so fun. I hope you come back and we'll, we'll pick another angsty episode or maybe like the fun, a fun dating episode. So 

we can flail about all that. K drama gives us that American television doesn't 

Bubs: oh, screw American television. I don't want ya. you're dead to me. Just like your characters.

Tina: oh my God. That's so right. Uh, thanks for coming. I hope you come back. 

Beep: All right. For the next podcast, you can look forward to us covering episode six, just a reminder. You can reach us on our website, streaming banes.com or on Twitter at TV Banes until then we hope that you learn and to stop drinking. I mean, sorry. We hope that because you may meet unexpected situations, you just put your hands up and welcome the rain.

We'll see you soon.